Down, Out and Forward

[KnighT]

It seems to me that many Golf Stroke Engineers stress that the swing only goes up, back, and....then down, out, and forward. Three dimensional. Also, forward is a result of two divergent forces (down and out).

1)Regarding the arms: If an arm is straight, is this as far 'out' as the arm can go during the swing ?

2)From the top of the backswing, where is the aiming point in relation to being down, out and forward ?

[Mathew]

It seems to me that many Golf Stroke Engineers stress that the swing only goes up, back, and....then down, out, and forward. Three dimensional. Also, forward is a result of two divergent forces (down and out).

Yup that is because the golf stroke takes place on a tilted plane.

1)Regarding the arms: If an arm is straight, is this as far 'out' as the arm can go during the swing ?

The left arm is extended by extensor action but this is seperate from the geometry of the clubhead orbit. Because impact is before the lowest point (approx vertical to the ground in relation of the left shoulder) the clubhead is going downwards and just as importantly - outwards.

2)From the top of the backswing, where is the aiming point in relation to being down, out and forward ?

The aiming point is always a point on the plane line so that the thrust is onplane. The plane line always remains the same regardless of the plane angle...

[6bmike]

The three dimensional stroke is back, up and IN, then down, out and forward- each at the same time. Not one after the other- this keeps in on an FIXED angled Incline Plane. The Incline Plane is attached to the Plane line on the ground like a roof attached to a gutter.


So…

Ques#1- I guess it would be but ‘Out’ is a direction not a destination. The right arm is still bent at impact and even slightly bent at low point past impact.

Ques#2- The hands trace a linear Plane Line and will pass a line of sight passed the ball before the clubhead impacts the ball… though not a true aiming point but more a impact fixed hand location, from the top the hands move in a straight line path to that point- still applying Extensor Action which keeps the radius of the left arm Lever constant. But it will almost feel like a straight drop. The pivot- hip motion- allows the hands, right shoulder and right forearm to move 3D. The pivot is trained by the hands to specifically delivery them unobstructed to the ball.

[Mathew]

The Incline Plane is attached to the Plane line on the ground like a roof attached to a gutter.

This is just an extremely picky point (I've been guilty of saying this too because it does make explaining it far easier without the extra layer of complexity). But think it is educational....

There are three plane lines - impact point plane line, the ground plane line (my terminology) and low point plane line. Whilst these lines run on a parallel to the intersection that the ground plane makes into the inclined plane - the impact point plane line is not actually on the ground - it runs through the desired sweetspot orbit at impact which should be very slightly above the ground. More Loft = closer to ground, Less Loft = higher above ground....

The plane shifts around the impact point plane line and as such the ground plane line and the low point plane line will change accordingly even if just very slightly.

[12 piece bucket]

This is just an extremely picky point (I've been guilty of saying this too because it does make explaining it far easier without the extra layer of complexity). But think it is educational....

There are three plane lines - impact point plane line, the ground plane line (my terminology) and low point plane line. Whilst these lines run on a parallel to the intersection that the ground plane makes into the inclined plane - the impact point plane line is not actually on the ground - it runs through the desired sweetspot orbit at impact which should be very slightly above the ground. More Loft = closer to ground, Less Loft = higher above ground....

The plane shifts around the impact point plane line and as such the ground plane line and the low point plane line will change accordingly even if just very slightly.

Very good point and good post!

I think another interesting Plane Line to discuss would be the Separation Point Plane Line. The point of impact is of course important but doesn't take precidence over the position of the clubface at separation.

[KnighT]

Last night I rewatched two videos from Tom Tomasello: Arms, and alignments.

He defines up, back, in, down, out, and forward. I was thinking about these terms in relation to my body. He explains them as being relative to the plane line.

I have been thinking about the golf swing in terms of 3 dimensions. Multi variable calculus comes to mind. I only took Calc 1 and 2 in college, but calc 3 adds the Z-axis. Everybody should remember taking the area on the x and y axis. Well, calculus is concerned with taking the area under a curve. Calc 3 takes the area of 3 dimensional shapes (I think). There is actually a thread in the Lab, oh it is from Mathew about spheres. I found that very interesting and plan on rereading it soon. Does this concept of 'spheres' tie in with down, out and forward ?

I would really like to make some 3D drawings and get somebody from my graphics department to create them on the computer. It would take away all imagination and visualization and clearly show all the lines that Mathew is talking about. And maybe...all the geometry that The Golfing Machine uses to create, sustain, and orient linear force.

If this has already been done I would really like to see some pics. I saw some that were very similar a few weeks ago, but not 3D. They were from two different perspectives and showed impact and low point nicely in relation to the left shoulder.

[Mathew]

Very good point and good post!

I think another interesting Plane Line to discuss would be the Separation Point Plane Line. The point of impact is of course important but doesn't take precidence over the position of the clubface at separation.

The point of seperation is incidental from the sweetspot going to the impact point plane line to the low point plane line.

The ground plane line and low point plane line are altered when the plane shifts around the impact point plane line. Likewise if you had a seperation plane line - it too will be altered with a shifting plane.

When we talk about the geometry of the clubhead orbit, we are talking about the delivering the sweetspot directly centered through the ball relative to the plane line direction regardless of clubface positioning altering the actual impact point of the ball. The two are unrelated...

[starretj]

It seems to me that many Golf Stroke Engineers stress that the swing only goes up, back, and....then down, out, and forward. Three dimensional. Also, forward is a result of two divergent forces (down and out).

Does this mean that back is a resultant of the up and in forces in the backswing?

JS