High Hands vs. Low Hands

[HungryBear]

I was doing some slo-mo, look, look, at high hands vs. low hands at impact and thinking about the consequences resulting from hand position at impace.

Looking at several conditions:

First swinging only:

#1 very high hands- Impact / lowpoint, left wrist close to uncocked-#2 accumulator , long release before “release swivel”- #3 accumulator, small pulley

#2 very low hands- impact/lowpoint, left wrist cocked-#2 accumulator, short release before “release swivel”-#3 accumulator, large pulley

These conditions are the EXTREMES.

In one condition – long #2 velocity accumulator travel

In the other condition – long#3 endless belt travel
.
What are the consequences/trade-off’s as I move in the direction of either extreme?

The Bear

[12 piece bucket]

I was doing some slo-mo, look, look, at high hands vs. low hands at impact and thinking about the consequences resulting from hand position at impace.

Looking at several conditions:

First swinging only:

#1 very high hands- Impact / lowpoint, left wrist close to uncocked-#2 accumulator , long release before “release swivel”- #3 accumulator, small pulley

#2 very low hands- impact/lowpoint, left wrist cocked-#2 accumulator, short release before “release swivel”-#3 accumulator, large pulley

These conditions are the EXTREMES.

In one condition – long #2 velocity accumulator travel

In the other condition – long#3 endless belt travel
.
What are the consequences/trade-off’s as I move in the direction of either extreme?

The Bear

VERY NICE!!! Welcome to the application of THE GOLFING MACHINE! You have moved from the world of book worm chapter and verse (which ain't a bad thing) to the world of a MACHINIST!!!

Now you are seeing how the different components must blend together and the rates at which and the amounts which certain components must comply to keep the clubshaft laying on the selected plane angle . . . .

This is a great place to be in your journey . . . now you gone from just looking at the dresses in the catalog to actually trying them on . . . seeing which one fits . . . which one looks best with your lipstick . . . your car . . . what you intended to do when the dress falls on the floor . . . .

Your observations are correct . . . the next step may be to see how your pivot has to work to move the plane on the "high hands" plane vs the "low hands" plane angles that you have described. Extremes as you say are a nice way to define how your body has to move to move the club on the selected plane angle. Remember the entire length of the shaft lays on the plane . . . you'll note some different movements in all your joints are required to achieve minimal shifting from the angle you choose.

In addition to your body and the arrangement of joints/components . . . . look at how the clubface and clubhead travels on the planes you described . . . which one has more clubhead travel . . . which one has a faster rate of closure of the clubface intrinsic to the plane angle. Good stuff.

Welcome to the big girls section . . . .

[YodasLuke]

VERY NICE!!! Welcome to the application of THE GOLFING MACHINE! You have moved from the world of book worm chapter and verse (which ain't a bad thing) to the world of a MACHINIST!!!

Now you are seeing how the different components must blend together and the rates at which and the amounts which certain components must comply to keep the clubshaft laying on the selected plane angle . . . .

This is a great place to be in your journey . . . now you gone from just looking at the dresses in the catalog to actually trying them on . . . seeing which one fits . . . which one looks best with your lipstick . . . your car . . . what you intended to do when the dress falls on the floor . . . .

Your observations are correct . . . the next step may be to see how your pivot has to work to move the plane on the "high hands" plane vs the "low hands" plane angles that you have described. Extremes as you say are a nice way to define how your body has to move to move the club on the selected plane angle. Remember the entire length of the shaft lays on the plane . . . you'll note some different movements in all your joints are required to achieve minimal shifting from the angle you choose.

In addition to your body and the arrangement of joints/components . . . . look at how the clubface and clubhead travels on the planes you described . . . which one has more clubhead travel . . . which one has a faster rate of closure of the clubface intrinsic to the plane angle. Good stuff.

Welcome to the big girls section . . . .

I have much less experience than Bucket in the woman's clothing department. But, I will offer some geometry advice.

Be aware that there is a radius or distance between the left shoulder and clubhead that must be managed. A level left wrist is an important condition.

I find many that have a cocked left wrist at address and impact have difficulties in the short game. Wet lies or little grass from partial yardages become almost impossible.

When centrifugal force is at work, the radius is extending. When the radius grows, the fulcrum must move. Without the fulcrum moving away from the ball, you have the possibility of a shank or a fat shot. Some schools of thought will call this a power source. I would suggest that it's an additional thing to manage.

[12 piece bucket]

I have much less experience than Bucket in the woman's clothing department. But, I will offer some geometry advice.

Be aware that there is a radius or distance between the left shoulder and clubhead that must be managed. A level left wrist is an important condition.

I find many that have a cocked left wrist at address and impact have difficulties in the short game. Wet lies or little grass from partial yardages become almost impossible.

When centrifugal force is at work, the radius is extending. When the radius grows, the fulcrum must move. Without the fulcrum moving away from the ball, you have the possibility of a shank or a fat shot. Some schools of thought will call this a power source. I would suggest that it's an additional thing to manage.

I have never had a problem with "fulcrum moving away from ball" thank you very much . . . .

[BerntR]

I've tried both recently, and the game has suffered from it big time. Whether it will pay off in the long run remains to be seen. I think the two extremes are very difficult to master at the same time.

The hinge action and swivel action is very different with low hands (elbow plane) and high hands (TSP) All things equal, it is much easier to close the club face when the shoulders are turning on a high plane and the hands are down low.

Further, the larger angle between the right hand and the club shaft at impact requires less closing of the club face and also a more gradual one than when the left hand is close to uncocked at impact. If your left hand is fully uncocked at impact you need a quick 180 rotation through the ball. If your left hand is vertical at impact you dont' need any additional forearm rotation through impact at all.

So you need to do a lot of things different to maintain club face control on one if you're used to the other.

Different rhythm,
Different hinge action,
Different heel toe balance in the stance. More towards the heels from EP.
Different push-pull balance through the ball. More pull from EP.
Different hip tilt. Less from EP.
Different pivot-arms rhythm. More turn through before impact from EP.
Different use of lower body.
Different force center. The swing force center will be lower in the spine on EP.
Different footwork.

If one of the planes work well , the other will at best be mediocre. Unless you're a true master, I guess.

Coming from low hands I can subscribe to what Ted says about the fulcrum. To some extent the tendency will be there with TSP as well, but more so on the elbow plane. Shanks has never been a pattern-like problem to me, but divots towards the deep side that steals distance on bad days has always been a signature in my game.

Short game and tight lies have not been more of a problem to me than other single handicappers, perhaps less. I used to have a pretty good semi flop from the hard pan, just sweeping the LW under the ball on a very shallow angle, with a frozen accumulator #4. Probably on the hands plane. I haven't needed that shot for quite some time so I don't know whether it still works. One of the advantages with low hands (and a flat swing) on the short game is that you can do a lot of accumulator #3 on a short path to get a good flowing motion on short strokes. And the shallow angle helps a lot on tight lies if you know how to use it. Also, you can be a lot less armsy and handsy through the ball. Slow and firm is always good in my book. But slow & firm requires a different pattern on EP than on TSP.

Ever since I tried to adopt to TSP and stock TGM alignments early this year my game has been in a mess. Obviously, I've been playing with conflicting alignments. And they are much bigger than the conflicts between hitting and swinging for sure.

Eventually I decided to forget about all alignments and just focus on what happens around impact. The idea was to find back to the old self. But that seems to be gone by now. Hopefully to be replaced by something better.

My average score half a year ago was in the high 80's. Now it's at least 5 strokes better. For the last two months the consistency has gradually improved, but the feel system and the alignments must be in a state of transition. It hardly ever feels like the perfect shot. The best shots are 90% solid.

When I hit good shots on TSP a few months ago, I had to stall the shoulders and let the hands pass the pivot through impact. Some of the shots were excellent, but it didn't feel right. The feet wasn't into it. Because I was still using a lot of the EP stuff I guess. Eventually I stopped thinking about EP and TSP, and just tried to get back to solid ball contact and staying connected through impact.

Two days ago I shot in the 70's for the first time in a year. Shot a 37 on front nine with a trople bogey. That was a long wait for an OK round. I observed that I was flirting with the TSP now. I had a visual of the club face closing during the impact interval. My old EP image is that of keeping the club face open until last instance - a reverse swivel in the down stroke at it's best. Swinging the heel of the club so to speak.

Swingin on TSP, my weight balance under the feet has moved slightly towards the toes. On EP I need to be swinging basically from the heels, the shoulder turn is directed on a plane above and parallell to the elbow plane. Hula-hula and right hand brings the hands down low. Impact happened more towards the left side of the body than on EP. The force center in the pivot is higher up in the core. And the direction of forces is more downwards at impact versus more outwards from EP. And then, a clear feeling of clubhead closure through impact.

I'm not dismissing neither low hands or TSP as inapropriate. Far from it. Everything is very different. So different that playing with both can get you into trouble.

But I am beginning to realize how different the two are. I can now address the ball from impact fix, on TSP "knowing" that I can drive hard with my pivot all the way through the ball. I've never been able to do that before. But I really need to anticipate a rapid (for me anyway) clubhead closing at impact to pull it off from the TSP.

I'll keep focusing on solid ball contact and good pivot action through impact. Then I'll see what plane I end up with. Or perhaps I get to the next level and can produce both planes at will.

I had an 8 iron that flew about 30 yards too long in my 79 round. A hot bullet that took a bounce off the back of the green and proceeded to a spot from where it was almost impossible to save par. I've hit solid 5 irons shorter than that! It's a new miss for me. One of the things I like when I swing on the elbow plane is that the different clubs have a very reliable max distance, that hook misses are most of the time just a tad long. Distance misses are basically moderately short instead of 30 yards long. Which is easier to recover from on most courses.

On the 18th I had a big slice off the tee. It is not the first time, but this time it flew 20-30 yards longer than usually, carried a pampus that would othervice given me another triple bogey, and I had a semi rough lie 165 yards out. A 7 iron to pin high and two putted for par and I posted a 79 on a very penalizing golf course

So the new pattern worked against me on one hole and helped me on another.

[O.B.Left]

Im with Luke on this one, being a big time proponent of the Level Left Wrist.

I hope I dont sound too blunt here ......

You can read TGM forever but if you dont adopt the Arm Set and Extensor Action you will never "know" it.

[Yoda]

Be aware that there is a radius or distance between the left shoulder and clubhead that must be managed. A level left wrist is an important condition.

Two more important sentences in golf have ever been written.

Thanks, Ted!

Now . . .

Let's make sure everybody understands them and why they are so important. Specifically, what is the Level Level Wrist and how does it unify and align Hand Location at Address (Section 3) and at Impact (Section 6)?

[HungryBear]

Many thanks for all the contributions SO FAR (maybe bucket is a exception- Bucket does not know but I was once a member of ILGWU- so IF I can help with wardrobe I may still be able to get an employee discount) .

My concern/question is that, for my computer, the positioning of the club head against the inside, rear, top (on plane contact) is controlled (actual monitor - but that monitoring makes every-other part do what it must to get the club head there) by #3 pp. So, I can "touch" the ball from almost any position it is the other imperatives that must be accommodated? Am I thinking straight?


The Bear