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HungryBear 12-12-2012 10:42 PM

Sorry I overlooked your reply O.B.

Quote:

Originally Posted by O.B.Left (Post 94598)
My answer : it starts at the Release Point (which is variable)


Slightly longer answer: and ends at the beginning of Hinge Action.
For me- It starts as a "assembly" roll down. my words not HK- to me that part is a much slower roll and DOES NOT effect the wedges.
I feel likie I am in selected hinge as I get to shaft parallel to base line.

And I come out of hinge near both arms streaght - I say near because I dont force it into steer- The finish swivel is exactly as U say- For me.
Or if you prefer a really longer answer with some patented rambling:

Same with Finish Swivel:starts where Hinge Action ends and finishes with the ..... wait for it... Left Hand on the bottom of the plane / right hand on the top assuming a V/V grip type.

This sounds weird I know , but when Swinging it can feel like one big Roll from Release to Finish Swivel . But it isnt just any old Roll it is an Roll that has specific alignments .... which you alluded to in a previous post.

And now for some rambling:

BTW Bear you said your axis of rotation is the spine. I think there is more to the story and its a major point of departure for many a golf theorist.

In startdown , yes the tilted axis of rotation (spine) drives the Right Shoulder down plane (assuming a Turned Shoulder Plane procedure and I do recommend it) this is the period of shoulder acceleration . But there is another lever IMO. The straight left arm attached to the pivot at the left shoulder accelerates away from the pivot thereby accelerating the hands to a speed that the pivot could never achieve. The hands are travelling at faster speed than the RPM of the pivot alone would ever allow for . There is no need for a crazy drastic over emphasized attempt to spin the pivot forever with arms pinned to chest. You dont pull with arms either. You dont do that when scything grass (Wild Bill again). As such the Spine is the centre of the pivot rotation and the left shoulder is the centre of the arm swing. You can change this for putting and make a shoulder stroke with two bent arms and thereby have low point mid body. Or you can Full Sweep Release a wedge flop say and get the arms swinging early. But for full power you need a transfer of momentum and a long lever for leverage --the straight left arm and you need what Homer termed Independent body and arm motion ---one thing Lynn loves about the McDonald drills . What Abe Mitchell tried to explain in his 1933 book. Its what we do all day with our arms. Like hinged blades on a rotor .

Or one is hinged , one is a ball joint. I like your right shoulder ball joint thing. Nice.

Short version of above: Once the left arm pulls away from the body (#4 firing and its the first to go) the Arms are moving about their own centre the Left Shoulder . Well assuming a Left Arm as centre procedure ... you could use the Right Elbow as some pros do , with a soft bent left arm at impact.

A wise man once when discussing this very thing and the notion that Hogan kept em plugged in ALL THE TIME pointed me to the Augusta footage Power Golf where he is letting one rip , high and long with a driver . He is leaning back like a long drive guy , ball forward and just ripping it and almost falling backwards as he flights it high. And of note he looks like he is trying to throw his arms off as fast as he can . Sure keep em pinned for control shots with angled hinging ! Not saying you cant do that when the situation demands. As Homer might have said if he were alive to hear these arguments " The pinned arm guys arent wrong necessarily their theory is just... well , incomplete". Hogan didnt pin em all the time. You could pin em for every shot of course , not saying you cant , but it aint ideal IMO. Sure are a lot of guys doing it these days. I did for a while. with a blocked angled release. A buddy of mine just kills it like this. Short swing , pinned, sorta like the new Tiger swing. Theres room for a difference of opinion. You got options.

Let me ask U a question about EA because U have probably thought this through.

U walk up to a door that opens out- away from you- hing on left door knob on right. You reach out with your right hand to turn the knob and open the door. The question- for EA do U turn the knob clockwise or counterclockwise? 2 muscle sets. for me clockwise is good EA counterclockwise is disruptive. What do U think?

HB

O.B.Left 12-12-2012 11:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HungryBear (Post 94611)
Sorry I overlooked your reply O.B.



Let me ask U a question about EA because U have probably thought this through.

U walk up to a door that opens out- away from you- hing on left door knob on right. You reach out with your right hand to turn the knob and open the door. The question- for EA do U turn the knob clockwise or counterclockwise? 2 muscle sets. for me clockwise is good EA counterclockwise is disruptive. What do U think?

HB

Dont follow, by EA do you mean Extensor Action? If so:

EA is always in line with left arm , out away , not on plane given any #3 angle . Not a counter clock or anti clock thing, just out along the line of the left arm . It extends the inert left arm. The radius.

Say the door is not rigid its made of say kling wrap. EA stretches it out to full extension. Full Radius. The hinge is set at the left shoulder. Talking the machine here. A door is Single Horizontal , like a pin ball paddle. No Up. Just Back and IN. Any clockwise or counter clockwise turning of the DOOR (not the knob) by the Right Arm Flying Wedge (not the right hand) will not change the nature of the Hinge assuming an turn parallel to the plane of the door.

If the turning of the knob as you say rolls the wedges , the hinge at the left shoulder will change its Alignment . It isnt Single Horizontal any more. But Homer after much thought preferred to leave Club Face Control as a left sided thing. Especially for the Swinger. Not saying it cant be done by the Right Forearm Flying Wedge it can . A lot of Angled Hinge guys do this. Swingers and Hitters. But ....

Daryl 12-13-2012 08:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by O.B.Left (Post 94613)
But Homer after much thought preferred to leave Club Face Control as a left sided thing. Especially for the Swinger. Not saying it cant be done by the Right Forearm Flying Wedge it can . A lot of Angled Hinge guys do this. Swingers and Hitters. But ....

Bad choice of words?

I don't think "preferred" is a good choice. Unless there's a breakdown in the Primary Lever, the Primary Lever behaves as though the Left Shoulder was a Hinged joint rather than a Ball Joint (one end of the Primary Lever). This is because the Left Arm rotation is restrained by the Right Forearm Wedge and its Elbow Location, which Holds and Moves the Flat Left Wrist aligned to a Vertical, Angled or Horizontal Plane.

HungryBear 12-13-2012 08:35 AM

I should have asked U about your application of extensor action- I will below


Quote:

Originally Posted by Daryl (Post 94594)
The Release Swivel starts at Release and ends at Both Arms Straight.

2 Choices. 2 very simple demonstrations.

Release with Extensor Action/Throw-out Swivel
Release with Extensor Action/Drive-out no-Swivel

Demonstration 1 - Swingers:

Right Arm only.
  1. Place your Right Elbow at your side, bend your Elbow 90 degrees with the Right Palm facing up.
  2. Lower the Palm while keeping the Elbow at your side. This is Extensor Action.

So, straightening the Right Arm by lowering the hand caused the Clubface to change its Alignment from On-Plane to Vertical for impact and the Right Hand became Aligned with the Elbow and Right Shoulder. Extensor Action without the #1 Accumulator.

So, the Release Swivel begins when the right arm begins to straighten (Release) and Ends when the Right Arm is Straight (Both Arms Straight).



Demonstration 2 - Hitters:

Right Arm only.
  1. Place your Right Elbow at your side, bend your Elbow 90 degrees with the Right Palm facing up.
  2. Straighten the Right Arm by pushing the Hand away from you (Don't lower the Right Hand).

So, straightening the Right Arm by pushing the Hand away caused the right Elbow to move into a straight Alignment with the Hand and Shoulder. Straightening the Elbow by using the #1 Accumulator does not change the Vertical Clubface Alignment. Extensor Action with the #1 Accumulator, no Swivel.


These demonstrations can be easily performed On-Plane with the Right Forearm Flying Wedge. I think that a lot of the confusion occurs while trying to understand and use Extensor Action. Extensor Action is not the #1 Accumulator however, it does use the same muscle group and they can be used simultaneously.

2 muscle groups:
Experiment-
Sit in a desk chair - piush away from the desk with palms against edge of desk fingers on top, thumbs inward. pushing tends to roll the elbows out- ccw right cw left.
--push away from the desk but with fingers under edge of desk, thumbs up/out. pushing tends to roll elbows in- cw right , ccw left.

two different muscle sections of tricept used?? have you noticed this and if so - which way do you do Extensor action and why??

HB

Daryl 12-13-2012 09:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HungryBear (Post 94615)
2 muscle groups:
Experiment-
Sit in a desk chair - piush away from the desk with palms against edge of desk fingers on top, thumbs inward. pushing tends to roll the elbows out- ccw right cw left.
--push away from the desk but with fingers under edge of desk, thumbs up/out. pushing tends to roll elbows in- cw right , ccw left.

two different muscle sections of tricept used?? have you noticed this and if so - which way do you do Extensor action and why??

HB

Yes, that's almost exactly what I'm talking about. The #1 Accumulator is straightening the Elbow while the Hand moves Straight Away from the Right Shoulder as though it were tracing a straight line from the Right Shoulder.

Extensor Action is the Right Hand moving Away while keeping the Elbow checked.

This, I think is already agreed by many.

HungryBear 12-13-2012 09:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daryl (Post 94616)
Yes, that's almost exactly what I'm talking about. The #1 Accumulator is straightening the Elbow while the Hand moves Straight Away from the Right Shoulder as though it were tracing a straight line from the Right Shoulder.

Extensor Action is the Right Hand moving Away while keeping the Elbow checked.

This, I think is already agreed by many.

Still not understanding.

do U mean by checked-Elbow in to side, cw right , or ???

HB

O.B.Left 12-13-2012 12:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daryl (Post 94614)
Bad choice of words?

I don't think "preferred" is a good choice. Unless there's a breakdown in the Primary Lever, the Primary Lever behaves as though the Left Shoulder was a Hinged joint rather than a Ball Joint (one end of the Primary Lever). This is because the Left Arm rotation is restrained by the Right Forearm Wedge and its Elbow Location, which Holds and Moves the Flat Left Wrist aligned to a Vertical, Angled or Horizontal Plane.

So you're puting clubface control under the Right Forearm Flying Wedges job description? But with the left shoulder as centre. Fine by me. But not what Homer settled on . Maybe he was thinking Swinging when he wrote this? More Flail action than right side. You can for sure hinge when swinging with just right arm for instance.

Tell me , do you tend towards Angled when using this swinging procedure D?

About Hinge Action its merely a description of the attitude of the face through the impact area in 3 Dimensional space. There are three basic planes . None of this did Homer invent. Its just logical. As such you could swing a golf club with your right arm only or attached to dogs tail and it would describe some sort of path through the ball. Homer just liked the left shoulder and the left side.

Re the dogs tail etc it would no doubt promote an inconsistent rate of face closure . Compliance with a basic plane (horizontal, verictical or anything in between , aka angled ) guarantee's a constant rate of face closure . No spikes or valleys on the rate of closure graph so to speak. In this regard Homer in the audio tapes suggested that grooving a Hinge Action (any one of em) for putting was the secret to consistent putting . That you didnt need to practice putting as much or as often when you could effect your desired Hinge Action and get your ball positioned consistently. Of note is that he didnt even seem opposed to Vertical Hinging Straight Back Straight Through aka Steering , non shaft planar motion, covering the target line. If you could do it consistently you'd produce consistent results. But he acknowledged the difference in ball reaction ...... not as much ball travel , a tendency to loft in the first few inches given layback of the face .

So ya to have a Hinge Action you need to be compliant with a basic plane and there are mechanical alignments that promote that. A centre to the arm motion , a constant radius , a delivery line to watch/ monitor, a ROLL feel. YOU SEEM TO ROLL THE RIGHT FOREARM WEDGE.. WHY NOT? And for this you must prepare. At Top . They form your intentions.

But I digress. My apologies to ICT . Uh can you repeat the question? Bueller ?

O.B.Left 12-13-2012 12:52 PM

I wanna go back to what the centre of the motion is re the wedges.

Wouldnt the wedges attach to the primary lever? Which is centred at the left shoulder. So you spin your pivot in startdown and then throw out your primary lever and roll the wedges about the left shoulder.

Or is it the LCOG? (Bear need not answer he disagrees we know) I dont see the wedges as rotating about the spine.

Thats how I feel it, see it anyways. Sorta like a top spin backhand in tennis . Talking flail action here. Wedges roll together.

Daryl 12-13-2012 01:17 PM

O.B.

I'm not putting Clubface control under anything but the left shoulder, Hinge action. I'm only saying that the kind of hinge is determined by the right forearm.

O.B.Left 12-13-2012 01:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daryl (Post 94583)

Here's where we differ; I think. My opinion is that the Wedges should remain at 90 degrees regardless of Ball Location (its ok if they're not if you prefer it that way). If you play the ball back 6 inches, then, at Impact, the Primary Lever will be Closed but Rolling. It will also be Swiveled and will be Swiveling toward Vertical which it will be when it arrives at Low Point. For the Clubface to be square to the Angle of Approach at Impact, you will need to rotate the grip of the club in your Hands. So at Impact, the Hands will be moving exactly as they would (but on a steeper plane) if the Impact were going to be at Low-Point.

Just re read this. You're changing my thinking on the less than 90 for balls back in stance. If you did what i was talking about (turned left , non turned right hand ) the right elbow would not be aligned for (passive or active) Right Arm thrust down the Delivery Line . It would be pointing target line wards. Its a very small thing but ..... precision golf demands precise alignments.

D, we need drawings. This stuff is the stuff of shot making. Me i square the face to the target line for balls back in the stance , draw shot resulting. For fades I move the ball forward , rotate my plane line left , left of my start line /face angle then swing along the plane line ... with a hold off angled hinge. (Lets be honest here) Straight shots ? The hardest shot in golf ? Experiment and compare your results . I dont try to hit em. Using these procedures the fade goes high , soft given more loft at Fix and the layback of Angled etc . The Draw is harder lower typically . You can adjust the release point to change the traj.

This is what I want to talk about ... lets start a thread using Homers book references. Tilted backspin, divergence between path and face angle, angle of attack, less out for steeper lie /plane angles , plane line rotation vs face rotation ....


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