Jimmy Ballards Book/Teachings
 

Does anyone have any experience with his book or teachings, just looking for a TGM spin on his left arm connection and fire the right side theory.

Check the archives at Brian Manzella's site. Brian has a lot to say about Jimmy Ballard.

Jimmy Ballard
 

Being new to this site, I did a search for Jimmy Ballard and found a suggestion to go to Doug Manzella's site. I couldn't get to his site after doing an internet search--may not be active now.

Anyhow, I'm giving an opinion concerning the original question about Ballard's swing theories.

I believe Ballard's teachings and method to be absolutely correct and his theory of connection, is the basis for the modern swing taught by most teachers today.

Though it may be best suited to "hitters" rather than "swingers", it, nonetheless, is a very effective method for playing golf. It offers greater accuracy, greater distance control, and effortless power---at least for me. It is a rather simple method to use once you've grooved the swing. In addition, the reasons for poor shots are more easily diagnosed and corrected by the user.

Any other Ballard swing users here?

Texsport

Brian's website

http://www.manzellagolfforum.com/forum/

This is a copy and paste job of a post on Brian's website made by Jim 0068

This is a copy/paste from a post on bombsquadgolf.com by a user there who apparently has professional experience. Not sure how much or where (hides his identity) but he used to play professionally and frequented Jimmy Ballard. Here are his notes on his swing split into 3 categories, what do you think?

Copy/Paste below from user Tiberon:

"First, understand one thing....I am not posting this to debate the golf swing, so if you don't like what Jimmy Ballard teaches, then don't read it and go listen to someone else, because I could care less...not many teachers have students that have won all 4 majors and not all coming from the same person (ie...Tiger) biggrin.gif !!!

I took years and years of notes and broke them down into 3 categories....SET-UP, BACKSWING, OR DOWNSWING. The one thing about Jimmy, is his teaching method never changes, and it hasn't for 50 years biggrin.gif . He's not a "try this or try that teacher", and the longer you are around him, the more he sounds like a broken record, but that is a good thing...trust me!!! Alot of people don't realize, but when you see Gary Player play, and he walks through his shots, he got that as a drill from Jimmy 3 weeks before he won the 1978 Masters and he's been doing it ever since...it stops him from hanging back, which is something he fought for a longtime!

SET-UP

-Feet with the driver should be atleast shoulder width apart.
-The right foot is square; the left foot is flared out a quarter of a turn.
-A straight back at address promotes a level, less around swing. Drill: put the club behind the ball, then look at your caddy in front of you while taking your stance....then lower the eyes to ball (gets rid of the hunched look)!
-In the grip, both hands oppose each other in a neutral position.
-The ball is positioned off the left heel for full shots.
-The chin should be up, and the chest high.
-The shoulders should be level at address and my upper left arm plugged into my chest (feel like you have a short left arm at address).
-The left arm points down at a address...not at the target.
-Soft arms at address.
-The right arm should be above my left at address, not tucked under.
-Both kees are braced in at address.
-At address, the arms for a triangle with the butt end pointed at the middle of the chest bone.

BACKSWING

-On the backswing there is a loading of the weight into the inside of right foot and leg.
-The left arm should be bent and feel short the entire swing.
-The thumbs both feel like they are under the shaft at the top of the swing.
-The club works straight back (not around) with no forearm rotation...the triangle formed by the arms remains intact with the butt end still pointing at the chest bone. No angles or cocking of the wrist and feel toe down.
-The left hip, left shoulder, and head should all get behind an imaginary line drawn up from the ball.
-The right shoulder works up, not around.
-The right wrist is flatter, not cupped (as opposed to some who say you should feel like a waiter holding a tray at the top of the backsing yucky.gif ).
-The left heel comes up, and the left knee points behind the ball.
-Keep the same amount of flex in my right knee from address to the top of the backswing.

DOWNSWING

-The hips and shoulders work through impact with the eyes releasing to the target (ala. Annika....who in Jimmy's opinion has the most sound swing in golf!)
-If the head stays down and still through impact, there will be a hang back in your finish...REVERSE C!
-The only cocking in the swing "feels" like it is done by the elbows, not the wrists.
-Both elbows "feel" like they point down to the ground on the backswing, downswing, and when you finish.
--The left thumb and elbow work like you're "thumbing a ride" through impact. Don't get separation between the arms, because this leads to a blocked position.
-The elbows should finsih close together with a full body release.
-The finish mirrors the backswing.
-In the finish, the shoulders, eyes, and hips are all level.

IMHFO, there is no other method that holds up better under pressure. There is a longtime saying on Tour that is often repeated by some of the best players in the world...."if you need someone to hit the ball exactly 162 yds., then you hand the club to Hal Sutton notworthy.gif ".

I've had the pleasure of spending time with some of the best modern day instructors...ie Leadbetter and Harmon. Leadbetter has ended more careers than he has helped, and Harmon is the most appealing looking swing instructor, but nobodies method holds up better and is easier to follow than Jimmy Ballards. I remember having a discussion with Paul Azinger 14 years or so ago about modern day teachers, and he said that the thing he like about Ballard was that he actually turned golfers into successful Tour players (started working with Hal at age 17), not like some of these other teachers that turned already Tour players into better swingers....alot of people don't realize that Faldo was already #1 in the world when he started changing his swing with Leadbetter. That's every teachers wet dream come true!!!


I don't like the connection thing . IMO this is Pivot controlled hands which I don't agree with. He also teaches a steep shoulder turn on the backstroke with a high right shoulder at the top. IMO you have a better chance directing the trail shoulder downplane from a flatter shoulder turn.

Jimmy Ballard
 

Thanks!

A pivot or turn is "the worst image in golf" according to Ballard. He teaches that the swing is not a turn or pivot--just back and through.

Texsport

And there in lies Ballards problem - teaching a sway. Ballard has a tough time understand how the hip moves. Turn back , bump, turn toward is not an alien move to humans.


It is not hard to pivot, keep a constant head position and hit the dickens out of the ball. Many of us have dabbled with Ballard, bought the book when it was still being published, and/or one of his videos. Less then impressed.
His left arm connection (accumulator #4) and early release (sweep release) are covered in The Golfing Machine and a whole lot more.

Ballard works for me! Very simple--the Golf Machine is not! I'd argue that Ballard does not teach a sway. Almost every great player in the world moves his/her head to the rear on the backswing--that's not a sway unless your weight gets back past the center of your rear foot!

I took a buch of lessons from a Harvey Pennick taught touring pro. He said Harvey's main key for him was to "get your left shoulder and head back over his right(back) knee on the backswing and then just let everything go toward the target".

On the subject of early release, I'll point out that neither Jack Nicklaus nor Tiger Woods holds off release, and in fact, both start releasing the clubhead early in their downswings.

Texsport

I'm glad it does.
Sounds like a nice pivot. Ballard doesn't believe in a pivot.
Yes, so does Watson- it is called a sweep release. Els, Hogan ans Sergio use a snap release. TGM explains all of this. Sweep relase is wonderful for a driver, less so for wedges- but you can. If you want I can show you pictures of Jack, Tiger and Watson using a snap release. Good golfers can perform move than one release.

I'm glad Ballard works for you. You say that TGM doesn't, since much of Ballard is explained in TGM book, what doesn't work for you? What is TGM swing in your opinion and who taught it to you?

Id just love to see Ballard swing the club just once- he doesn't on any of the tapes I have.

It's not so much a case of parts of TGM that don't work as the whole, as Ballard working much better. I read TGM many times, marked the sections that seemed to pretain to my swing, tried to execute, but saw no improvement.I'm not a beginner, having had a handicap between +1 and -2 most of my life.

The snap release led to hooks for me, as it does/did for Els, Hogan and Sergio.

By the way, Ballard says the best golf swing in the world belongs to Annika Sorenstam--another sweep release player, if I'm not mistaken. Her swing seems to adhere to all of Ballard's principles closely.

My son is a PGA head club pro and he guided me to Ballard. No one has ever taught me TGM swing--attempted self learning.

Texsport

Snap release- some call it a delayed hit- leads to hooks? If Hogan, Els and Sergio hook the ball it isn't from their release.

The sweep release is a fine way to strike a ball. So is a snap release. Use whatever works best for you- that is the beauty of TGM- options.

How did you try to alter Ballard's swing with bookmarks from the book? Not everything is compatible. And why?

What improvement were you going for with such a low HC?

Everything in Ballard’s swing philosophy is covered in TGM. All is good, in fact he made a lot of money preaching accumulator number four. I still say he has no idea how hips function.

I had the opportunity to watch Annika up close at the LPGA championship, I managed the driving range for the tournament last June...to me...it looked like Annika is not a full sweep releaser but a random sweep releaser with a shoulder turn throw...like a 10-24-C release with a 10-20-C and 10-20-E combination trigger types. If I didn't use the right arm swing, I would be using that type of swinging stroke pattern.

DG

Tex,

Hogan used a Snap Release throughout the successful half of his career....

....in fact, I don't think I've EVER seen a swing of Hogan where he wasn't using a Snap Release.

He didn't hook it later on in his career, I'll tell you that....

By generally saying, "later on in his career," I mean when he was the Hogan everyone knows....the "one of the greatest ballstrikers of all time" Ben Hogan.....

The Ben Hogan who, as Moe Norman said, "was the only other guy who hit it on my (Moe's) level."

The guy who arguably reached the highest level of pure skill of any golfer ever.

He didn't hook it! Snap Release.

And if anything....I'd have to think that having a Snap Release would LESSEN your chances for a hook....

.....if anything.

But- Clubface is not Release Point, as far as I can see.

From my experience with Snap releasing I agree with birdie_man...

DG

Jimmy And Me
 

Uh...yes.

In the late-1970s, I made the trek from Marietta, Georgia, to Pell City, Alabama, to visit Jimmy. It was an experience I'll never forget. Later, my December 20, 1983, letter to Golf Magazine generated not just one, but two personal responses from Jimmy.

That said, the current 'goin's on' in this thread are just way too much fun to interrupt. As you were, gentlemen...

I'll be back!

Yoda, you are killing us. Tell us what happened!!!!........

Road Kill
 

Rich,

I'm just back from our PGA of SoCal Academy and it is very late.

I've got a lot of respect for Jimmy Ballard, but there are definitely places where the rubber leaves the road.

And, given my own interpretation of his teachings, young Yoda was road-kill.

I'll dig into my files in the next day or so and put something up.

Fair enough and thank you.......sleep well...............rich

I haven't tried to alter or modify any of Ballard's ideas expressed in his book. As far as use of the hips is concerned, since I am a natural right-to-left player, I find that the faster I drive my right hip toward the ball on the downswing, the less chance I have to hit a hook.

Improvement goal? I'd like to be able to work the ball both ways more consistently. Draws are no problem but reliable fades are more difficult.

Texsport

I also grew up learning the Jimmy Ballard method and it worked well for me as long as my timing was good. The things I never really got were his concept of "springing the shaft" and his idea of coiling behind the ball. Springing the shaft causes a lot of throwaway for me and I never really could hit down on the ball. His idea of the coil has too much movement, IMO. Jimmy says that the spine shifts over to the right leg and then unwinds to the left. For me that was way too much lateral movement and it was hard to time, (I still fight the crazy legs today because of this movement). I like the Manzella, Riggs, TGM idea of the spine staying over the ball and the upper body turning over the right leg. This gives me a much more stable pivot and my body is quieter in the DS. I will say that I really did like the Ballard method, I just really changed a few of his ideas for my swing. I like the idea of firing the right side. Ballard's ideas work when you can get all of the parts correct.

Mike

Then how did you use The Golfing Machine information that failed?
Where is that right hip before you drive it to the ball? Has it re-positioned itself 45 * from address position, if so how?
Learn Hinge Actions- for a fade learn an Angled Hinge Action. It has a natural fade to the ball flight. (move it back with a closed clubface for a draw using AH)

You can use a Horizontal Hinge action with the ball moved back to produce a fade since the clubface hasn't finished closing.

Build a machine and you control the ball and control the game.
I can't imagine studying with a one suit fits all instructor.

mike

Oh come on! Everyone knows that Hogan stopped his hook by taking enormous counter measures. The weakest grip in history and cocking his wrists so that the clubface was so open at the top he couldn't get the face closed no matter how hard he swung. In fact, he says he hit it better the harder he swung--meaning he almost got the face squared up. Only his tremendous athleticism and continuous practice allowed him to swing this way successfully.

If Hogan's swing was so perfect, how come nobody swings that way today?

The major fault or bad swing error for both Els and Sergio is absolutely a hook. Els tries to prevent it with slowed down swing timing and Sergio prevents it with very rapid leg and hip drive in the downswing. Both basically move the ball right to left all the time.

All IMHO.

Texsport

I don't wanna get into anything else about Hogan....

I'm just addressing how you said his Snap release led to hooks when it clearly didn't.

I don't care how much he opened his face as a "counter measure"....I don't care if "no one else can swing like Hogan" (*cough* bullshit....anything's possible).....

I just can't see how having a Snap Release would cause hooks.....it doesn't make sense to me at all.

Clubface causes hooks....so Hogan changed that.

And like I said.....from what I can gather I'd think a Snap Release would make it harder to hook.

....I don't know this for sure, but it makes sense in my head.

TGM machine didn't fail me as far as modifying Ballard. I tried swing adjustments using TGM way before Ballard. It's just that Ballard's ideas worked better for me.

My right hip is probably 45* rotated from address at the top of the backswing. Since I've freed up my left foot and allowed it to roll and lift slightly on the backswing i've eliminated any tendency to hang back/reverse pivot. Also, more weight transfer is required to make Ballard swing work for me. Fat or blocked shots would result without full weight transfer back and through.

I agree that one swing for all is not realistic but I also believe that everyone must slightly modify the basic principles of any swing theory to accomodate personal physique, strength, and timing issues.

Texsport

I've got no quarrel with a snap release. Certainly many great players use it.

I only pointed out that Nicklaus, Woods and Sorenstam use a sweep release.

Texsport

What do you see as the "TGM way" to swing a golf club?
I still see all that movement as a sway or at least a big horizontal movement off the ball- it really moves the incline flat swing path horizontally when the left shoulder moves perfectly well around a stable spine. I understand Ballards argument as to why he says it isn't a sway- I tried to believe it myself but couldn't. I found that you can turn and rotate and the ball flies. Just be thought on it.
That is what TGM is all about. I have choices not only in the way I want to build my stroke but I can build strokes for a short game, scoring irons or drivers, too.
Take for an example, this month in Golf Magazine, it spoke of a full shoulder turn with the hands high like VJ or Els. Right ! Not many people can do that (or should). The Golfing Machine (I can write that without a trademark- huh?) is perfect for all sizes, shapes and ages.

This sounds interesting Mike...

Why not take a long swing with upright plane?....I have a few ideas that might fit but if you know fill me in.

I'm more concerned with the "(or should)" rather than the "can."

-Paul

I'm sorry I forgot to write my full thought- not many golfers are "lean" enough to have a full shoulder turn and lift the hands high like Love or Els. Yet golf mags say to do that. Tell a barrel chested guy to do that and he would lift out of his address and/or reverse pivot to look like Els.

The should: If you are flexible, lean or young and the hands can reach for the sky without lifting out of address than thats great. But I still like as few shifts as possible and feel the hands should stop when the left arm ends. And for you skinny guys- thats way up there.

Ballard didn't work for me.
 

When I was young I got a good dose of Jimmy Ballard, and the results were not pretty. My father is a PGA professional who became a Ballard convert in the early 80s and eventually assisted Jimmy at a few of his schools. A lot of Ballard's ideas are easy to misinterpret or take to extremes. There is no doubt that many Ballard students, myself included, developed a sway. I also had a very slack left arm, due to his insistance that the left arm shouldn't be straight. For me, though, the biggest problem with Ballard's ideas is the lack of emphasis on the hands. Basically, shift your weight back, fire your right side, stay connected and your hands will do what they are supposed to. That may work with some talented players, but for me it was a recipe for disaster. In the past 10 years, I have drifted from book to book, reading and rereading various ideas from Leadbetter, Nick Price, Jim McClean (a Ballard disciple), Percey Boomer and Manuel de la Torre. SOME of them had SOME good info, but no one gave me a complete understanding of the swing, nothing "clicked" for me, and my overall idea of the swing was very piecemeal.

I think Ballard's swing CAN work for a highly talented player who already has "educated hands", but once I entered the world of TGM about 6 months ago, I can see why it didn't work for me. I had no idea what my hands should do in the swing. I had no stable base (due to a sway) and no constant radius (due to lazy left arm). My right side tries to dominate, so although I am generally a swinger, the right side tends to take over (which I think was the root of some periodic shank problems I had in the past). Nearly everything I am doing now is an "undoing" of what I was taught when I was 11. With TGM I finally have a comprehensive understanding of the swing and what I should be trying to achieve in various parts of the swing. More than anything, under my old understanding, I wasn't complying with ANY of the 3 imperatives, and now I know that however my swing evolves, it must incorporate them.

.................................................. ..............

Hang in there!!! I think many people can relate to what you are saying.

Once you educate the hands, and get the Hands Controlled Pivot idea going... you should start feeling, and playing better.

Some did(do) well with Jimmy... some did(do) not.