Role of the Right Shoulder
 

I understand that the role of the right shoulder in the golf is that it stays back and on the plane.
Now if the right shoulder moves forward or out towards the target line,how does that affect your golf shot? Does not rotating your hips automatically cause the right shoulder to jut out?

I just felt like posting, so here's a quick note. Someone else might tear it apart, but at least we get this started.

"Back and on plane" does not sound bad.

The actual role of the right shoulder depends on whether you are hitting or swinging. Swingers use it as a flywheel - spinning down on plane - once the hips have lead the way. Hitters uses the right shoulder as a base for "the hit", so it'll stay more "back".

Shoulders moving out sounds like level shoulders. That would cause roundhousing, i.e. going the wrong way. The eyes will tell the Computer: "we'd better do some out-to-in if we want to hit the ball at all".

The shoulders are leading the clubhead to a location high above the ball. The Computer does not want that. So it'll tell the hands to fix it. The reaction is flipping the hands in order to make the clubhead hit the ball.

That will in turn default to a pull, duckhook or hook. The hook tendency is often combatted by an open face and/or chicken-winging, most likely causing a slice.

Either way the result depends heavily on hand manipulation.
No. Hips and shoulders do not move as a unit.

In general I feel getting the shoulders on the right track will immediately take the game to the next level.

Not saying it is easy.

The more the shoulders go out and above the plane the faster the left wrist must uncock to strike the ball. So you will more than likely:

1) lose swing speed
2) start fading the ball
3) ultimately, hitting it shorter

Thanks for a great indepth response!

Can you say....Over The TOP? :) Right shoulder stays back, onplane as commanded by the hands - key words? - ON PLANE!

They may I suppose and they may not I suppose.

How's that for an answer???
:eyes:

I am a swinger, why if I use the right shoulder to go down on the start of the downswing, the shot is quite good, but usually not enough power for a full finish?

If I use the left leg, hip, left chest to pull it will have a lot of power, but usually a pull or hook due to I guess the shoulder goes out.

Then I try the left pulling, the right shoulder going down but its difficult, is this the right motion?

When driving the right shoulder down plane, what does the right hip do? If the right hip moves out towards the ball, I hit shanks, fat shots and cannot compress the ball at all. Keeping the hip back works well if I drve the right shoulder down plane. Question, does the right hip move towards the ball at all in a proper swinging procedure or does it only turn behind the toe line? Has anyone else thought about this?

Hardest thing for me to learn
 

This is a great issue and one that was the hardest for me to learn. I have played since I was 17 and always tended to fade the ball or slice depending upon how hard I swung. I struggled for years and worked on my grip (stronger and stronger) to no avail. Last year I rediscovered TGM and began filming and look, look, looking at what I was really doing.

Long story short, roundhousing so grip changes were not the answer....well, not the real answer.

I began trying to work my right shoulder down and had a heck of a time. I then thought, get my left shoulder up on the downswing and the right will go down. Worked some but not all of the time.

Then one night, on TGC, I saw Martin Hall demonstrate a drill that helped me tremendously. You take your stance at the with your driver. Then take the driver and place it across your shoulders with the grip toward the target flush with your left shoulder and the head out the back (about two feet sticking out the back). Then you backswing to the top and on the downswing, try to hit the ball with the head of the driver (which you can't of course). This will give you immediate feel of getting the right shoulder down on plane. If you have not been doing this then it will feel quite different.

This single drill got me to focus on my right shoulder and I can now feel immediately when I am not down on plane with my right shoulder. I took film after this drill and the difference is quite startling. The only drawback has been that now I have to ensure I don't come under a bit (which is far better than over).

Been drawing the ball for the first time.....ever in my playing life and it is great. My buddies have noticed too since my distance immediately improved. Another side issue is that I have noticed my wrist cock now is much deeper into my swing than before which I have attributed to my shoulders pulling my hands down rather than me hitting with my hands from the top.

Try this........I have shown this to a few folks on the range, and it has worked for everyone that has tried it.

ditto for me on the right hip; if it goes out, bad things happen. Besides the shank, the worst is the well-compressed, very long pull shot that is off the planet.

When Ted worked with me on this in April, I had to feel like my hips were frozen on the downswing. Clear the hip going back, then a little lateral slide/bump to start things down, but that's it. The problem isn't gone by any means...it's been a tough one for me, but these few things have helped me the most...

1) tracing

2) pulling the butt-end of the club straight to/through the ball - try it without thinking about or moving your hips...let them be moved instead.

3) feel/sense my right elbow, still bent, brush in front of my right hip on the downswing (clearing the right hip). This one helped me really start to see #2

4) balance - especially paying attention to sensing where my weight is via my feet. If my weight gets at all towards the toes of my right foot on the backswing, I'm dead.

Still, my tendency is to fire my hips through pretty quick. On the latest video I shot, my right hip had moved quite a bit before impact, but if I do those things above, it stays out of the way - more of a "turn behind the toe line" like you mentioned. That, however, is a result of what I'm trying to accomplish w/ that list above vs. a conscious swing thought about my hip(s).

That thought alone could help a lot of folks!

I know you're a big believer in the importance of balance, Ed, and I've appreciated your posts on the topic. One of the things that I didn't really get when people talked about balance was that good balance doesn't equal not falling over :)

I've played lots of different sports and have "good balance" in that I have always felt stable and balanced during my swing - hard/soft swing, straight/bent plane, etc... However, I do not have very good "golf balance" (getting better). When my weight shifts where it shouldn't (usually my toes), my body automatically compensates; I feel stable, hit the ball and don't fall on my face, but the results aren't always good.

Another flaw Edz likes to talk about is the "lift and roll" takeaway/backswing. When I do that I tend to never clear my right hip and then get in a laid off position at the top. good balance, tracing, etc.. is all pretty tough from there.

Strong shoulder for a heavy load.
 

I like this Chris :) . Never thought of adding the Clubhead to this drill. I always used just a shaft across the shoulders to demonstrate going down the Turned Shoulder Plane. Glad it worked for you. I will incorporate this into my lesson programs. Now, I can raise my lesson rates :whistle: :laughing1 .

Drewitgolf
 

You may have to pay Martin Hall some pennies.

I saw him doing the drill on TGC at about 3 in the morning. Usually I don't like (or do) drills but I gave it a try and found the downswing plane for the first time (for me anyway).

Since discovering it, I have used it with students at First Tee and it works great for them too. The only problem is that their flexibility allows them to come under plane a bit.

Have fun.

Kevin

Thanks for the ideas BamBam. The off the world pull-hook is a major problem of mine, I hit a house across a major two lane road here in Minneapolis last week. Whenever I try to put some power in a shot, the right hip flys out. I like your suggestions and will try all of them.

Drewitgolf Again
 

Also, this works great with a Momentus Power Hitter driver (my wife got me one for father's day. It works even better with the additional weight.

k

Hogan "Power Golf " right shoulder
 

I have been looking at the photos of Hogan's swing in "power Golf", specifically at the degree of downswing shoulder rotation and "downness" of the right shoulder.

My basic assumption/knowledge for swingers is :-

Rotation of shoulders leads to start of throw out action

Delay throw out action by "moving in a straight line"

Secondary axis tilt provides straight line motion and delays throw out.


Now based on that I have studied the face on photos of Hogan and was surprised that his downswing begins with quite alot of shoulder rotation combined withlateral weight shift to left.

See his "end" position

Shoulder turn is about 110 degrees - John Daly style

See his "Downswing hands mid chest location"

Shoulder turn is about 30 degrees and shoulders are level.

ie. lots of rotation of shoulders for not much "downness" of right shoulder down plane

His hands have moved about 30 inches.


Now look at pictures through to impact

The shoulders complete the last 30-40 degrees of rotation but right shoulder goes much more down and more obvious tilt.

What I am leading to is a discussion of when does axis tilt occur. Hogan seems to have a definite rotation of about 70 degress on downswing before much right shoulder down plane action and tilt occurs.

Is this early ( relative to tilting) shoulder rotation the way that a swinger goes from "end " to the "top" of his straight line delivery path??

Is downswing shoulder rotation needed for "top arc" and secondary axis tilt needed for "straight line delivery "??

Do these observations seem true to you. I know that if I try to tilt too soon on downswing my weight never really shifts to the left and my right shoulder is in an impact degree of "downess" ( relative to Hogan) but my hands are still mid-chest.

Thanks for any thoughts...

The above statement puzzles me. It's my understanding that a weight shift occurs because the hips slide left. If the head remains centered and stationary, then the hip motion results in an Axis Tilt. The Hula-Hula concept impresses upon you the necessity of the stationary head in permitting Axis tilt to occur.

The last part that say's "hands are still mid chest" can have varying causes, but obvious and easily corrected, however, Zone 1, the pivot; feet, knees, hips, and eventually shoulders needs to be corrected before Zone 2.

Garcia
 

///////////////////////////////////////////////////

If you look at pictures of Sergio Garcia... you will see a similar shoulder action to Ben Hogan. Bobby Clampett is another.
Their right shoulder does not appear to move Down, until very late in the downswing.

I believe Mr. Skywalker has some information posted dealing with AXIS TILTS and DELIVERY PATHS.

If the downswing sequencing gets off, and/or PIVOT LAG is out of order due to an emphasis on the RIGHT SHOULDER MOTION AT STARTDOWN... I can see how this could cause problems. This is sometimes a problem. When concentrating on one component, sometimes the others that should come before that one can be smothered out. All the right things need to be in there... even and especially... when you are monitoring certain things.

True: even the best motion can be exaggerated to a fault.

I've noticed that to get to that type of position, I need to focus on a 'hands downplane' motion (Tomesello move), which is counter to the 'hips move' that Hogan speaks of. (keep in mind I have an aggressive hip drive, so that move still allows proper sequence 'up the chain' in my case).

Thanks Daryl, don't get too hung up on my comment above. This was just me experimenting with a motion, not my desired pattern, purely for the sake of discussion. Going to the opposite extreme of JUST moving the right shoulder down with no rotation.

What I wanted to discuss was Hogan's ( and maybe Sergio's - thanks Lagster!) shoulder movement which seems to have alot of rotation before the down.

It would appear - again from me just experimenting in front of a mirror - that early shoulder movement alone causes a steep delivery path and as long as you "time the down" movement of right shoulder you can take the hands to a max trigger delay position with shaft parallel to plane line. It avoids clubhead getting "stuck" behind - maybe?

Gentlemen,
Keep in mind,
I do not believe, and I could be wrong, that Homer relegated the right shoulder ONLY to Swinging...

Just a thought..

I agree...right shoulder with swinging.

DG