Angel Cabrera : TGM Analysis
 

It would be great if any of our many resident TGM residents could give a TGM analysis of Angel Cabrera's swing. There is a lot of compression and a lot of lag in there and it would be wonderful if we could learn a little from it. :question:

Isn't amazing how the well known Argentine players like Roberto DiVicenzo, Edwardo Romero, Andres Romero and Angle Cabrera all have that easy on the high powerful flowing action. All of them also seem to be a bot dodgy with the short putts.:think:

Would be interesting. Cabrera really drove well & stuck them on Sunday.

The fact that he has never had a proper lesson does not mean that his swing is not based on variations of TGM components.

Although the fact that he (by his own account Sunday) prefers use of cigarettes over sports psychologists :laughing9 probably never was a candidate entry in Chapter 14.

Very clearly a 'hands control' motion.

He looked sorta like a Hitter to me . . .

Angel Swinger or Hitter
 

I thought that that a long flowing action like Angel's would be a Swinging Action?

Same here looks an out and out swinger to me. Can't quite understand where Bucket got that one from...

I agree with bucket. he is a hitter. tempo alone does not differ a hitter and swinger. Can be an aggressive swinger.

There is no sign of centrifugal throwout.

Well there seems throwout to my eye, what do you base this on?

Also he comes in very deep with what looks like a snap release i can't see how he'd square the face without cf.

Punch elbow from drivers to irons. His arm doesn't Freewheel to a finish like swingers (sergio, his good buddy Eduardo ,) more "holding out" look.. due to hitter arm support on the primary assembly, especially in the irons. Arms wide apart at TOP of backswing and throughswing.
The difference of hitting and swinging is the active use of Accumulator 1 .

The way he uses his body on driver resembles of a swinger . and he have a long back swing for a hitter... so... 4 barrel cracker hittah.

Though I must admit, I only seen few swing from the recorded telecast.. so ^^.

And being bias.. Look at his distance.. ! lol


Hitter can snap release if he want.. but I am not sure he did...What do you base on?

nuke99 he may have same right forearm thrust to make him a four barrel. But to me he treats the club a lot more like a rope than an axe, he also seems to rotate his palms to the plane and has a snap release.

A hitter still need the Pivot transport. The left side can only pull the left arm.. It cannot push no matter what. Does that make them a swinger? Look at my sig... taken year back.. Lynn say I am Hitting .. ( and i thought i am swinging, he is right because my forearm is active ) lol. Over the top too !

There is no word called switting in the TGM book , Nor I implying he is using Incompatible component. Therefore IMHO, there is only Hitting or Swinging.

He uses Accumulator 1,thus the elbow become active power. How is that differentiated when the elbow knows only to bend and unbend... ?

Is it "feasible" to let the centrifugal take over or throwout when the accumulator 1 is active and the arms assembly is stiffen by the accumulator 1+ extensor action ( which he does not use alot) supporting the primary assembly?

Centrifugal throwout works on a flail or a stiff piston assembly ( axe) ? Depending on how we use the term and classifying them.

And... Treating the club as a rope or an axe is not the way to differentiate hitting or swinging IMO... its just an analogy.

Well he may have his right elbow in a push position but he also drags the club away at start up, throws it onto pp #3 at end then appears to drag the club down longitudinally storing loads of accumulator #2 very deep into the impact zone with a snap release.

I think it's a large assumption to make that his power source in accumulator #1.

I went slow mo on a couple of swings for him. I t-bo or what-the-heck-ever-you-cal-it.

It looked drive out to me. I don't think you are going to see many "pure" hitters from a chapter 12 perspective other than TeddyKnockthecrapoutofit. Most of those guys don't know and don't care what their pattern is.

It looked like Right Arm Acceleration to me big time . . . but I'm just a mongoloid from the shallow end of the gene pool.

Maybe there's a swing vision out there for him . . .

I checked on youtube and couldn't find one.

Maybe he is a hitter, i don't know anymore spent too much time on this thread as it is. But if he is a hitter then nobody is safe...

There's one swing from Cabrera here . . . can't tell much . . . but this is a cool klip.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=1624274804425707413&q=angel+cabrer a+swing&total=11&start=10&num=10&so=0&type=search& plindex=0

IMHO
He goes way past end point at the top plus an active left wrist = swinger.
Lots of right arm extensor action through impact.

Indicates how weak the TV coverage was that no one has posted a slo mo swing on Youtube.

This is the classical case of people thinking the world is split into PURE One plane swing or two plane swing (hybrid planer :p too funny).Hitter or swinging in TGM. "they must posses a special trait , move or component to be pure"

'in TGM Pure Hitter or Pure swinger and must follow 24 component set out by TGM', that is not the intention of TGM, TGM is a catalogue with a guildline. Hitter and swinger are are mechanical actions. Either using Centrifugal throwout, Or muscular drive and it cannot be both since Accumulator 1 replaces the centrifugal throwout. Safe to say, Accumulator 1 = the muscular drive in ALL HITTER.

There are more hitters in the tour imaginable because its easier to control the hinge action with hitting. And its more powerful ( my opinion) for stronger people. And players are Stronger than ever.

Sequential release ( NOT tom watson, colin Mog.), SNAP release(NOT tom watson /jack), Horizontal hinge ( NOT Colin, Hogan, Bobby Clampet ), lagging takeaway( macogrady the hitter use that) , long backswing ,RHYTHM, TEMPO(Hogan and Sergio and Ochoa swing HARD , Stuart appleby the hitter look smooth and easy) are not limited to swingers nor exclusive ..

I simply stop thinking that the Hitting and swinging patterns set out in TGM chapter 12 are the "best" and "ideal" in the golfdom, the book will be as thin as the plane truth for golf if it is, because he would not have to catalogue it and gave us CHOICES. Its just a guildline what Homer Kelly thinks is a start, l would give him a PM if he is still alive. But Homer Kelly said it, He didn't care what we do, as long as we understands why we do it for.

People just love to see black and white, absolute, stereotype.

On the V1 swing of him i filmed myself at the British PGA at Wentworth he has a Pitch basic stroke.

Tomasello Swinger
 

Angel Cabera....Tomasello swinger all the way......Magic of the Right Forearm.....Yeeee Hawwwwwww.

DG

The hitter carries the club up and carries it down - I do not see Angel doing that. He is swinging the club. It could be a right arm swing but hard to see from the camera angle.

besides bucket's find:

Fifth one off the tee.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...ch&plindex =3


there is:

around 1:50 mark

http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...ch&plindex =4


and, a Par 3 iron shot

http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...ngel+Cabrer a





Bent Right Flat left.

Nice pic...check the divot!!

That pic says DRIVE OUT to me . . .

The par 3 video is clearly a swing.

Maybe in the pic shown he's using his right hand to manipulate the ball flight...

Is the active use of accumulator 1 the real distinction between hitter and swinger?? Surely that is just the choice of power package accululators and number of barrels - you can have 4 barrels in hit or swing .... so does that make the 4 barrel swinger the same as a 4 barrel hitter???

My take on the argument is that it is the loading action that distinguishes the hitter from the swinger - drive or drag load. 7-3 stuff...

Identifying the loading action and the nature of support of right forearm for secondary or primary lever... the location of pp3 when loaded ...is it quarter turned....

his right forearm is not in a swingers position when he loads the shaft IMO - the right forearm is 90 to left arm and shaft with pp3 behing the shaft - not quarter turned.

Heres a couple of pics, not great quality as it's just paused video from youtube.



Now to me he looks like he's pulling the club and loading his left wrist.

When does loading occur?
 

I think loading occurs when the shaft starts to bend... everthing else is sustaining or increasing load ( drag sustains lag pressure and drive increases lag pressure) ... these photos ( if in the context of full swing) are indeterminate... images of force sensation are almost impossible... got to see where right forearm is and work out where pp3 is in relation to the shaft bend onset... that is loading.... that is what seperates hit and swing.... hit or swing is about physics....direct quote from 7th edition...


"HIT OR SWING

7-19. LAG LOADING
This category recognizes the over-all control by the Clubhead Lag Pressure Point (6-C-2) and that manipulation of its Loading Procedure determines the Physics of both Hitting and Swinging (Preface). (Study 6-H-0, 7-3 and 7-20.)"

All the rest of the "supposed" hitting or swinging components are what makes the imperatives more likely to be maintained through impact... but the key distinction is lag loading... and you have to feel the difference to know it...photos are readily misinterpreted because they do not show the force sensations as readily as they are felt!

It looks like Cabrera loads the shaft with a hitters right forearm position IMO. DOes he have some components that are perhaps generally more compatible with swinging ...possibly .... but that right forearm looks loaded for hitting...

Is it?

I always thought it was whether your pulling or pushing, then ideally you want the right forearm in the right position to support that load.

Pushing or pulling is physics... these are Homer Kelley's words ( as per 7th edition and editing)... my italics /bold/underline....

"HIT OR SWING

7-19. LAG LOADING
This category recognizes the over-all control by the Clubhead Lag Pressure Point (6-C-2) and that manipulation of its Loading Procedure determines the Physics of both Hitting and Swinging (Preface). (Study 6-H-0, 7-3 and 7-20.)"

Horizontal hinging....with a little chicken wing left arm action. Time to go to Popeye's....

DG

Guys remember Homers hitting and swinging is just his theory. Most golfers use both and not just purely one or the other in each swing. Most players look more like they are hitting short irons and swinging there longer clubs. I personally feel that way. Go try and hit a 1 iron pretty tough, much easier to swing one.

I don't know dawg that looks like Swivel to me . . . gotta Swivel regardless of Hinge Action regardless of Loading Procedure . . . I love me some Popeye's . . .

It is ... The Left side can only PULL , the tricep can only PUSH. This doesn't change in any situation.

The forearm relation to its support of the primary assembly , and secondary assembly( 7-3) will determine the Loading. and Physics..

And a PULLin and Dragging isn't exactly Pulling all the way ... its an analogy and will cause problem if taken Literally. There is still a "Hit" it out out out like Tomasello say In a "DRAG" loading. A Long ARM down to the target .. ( DG is going to be very happy ) .. The reason i explained this is , the difference can be very subtle in a sequence.

I switched over to a hitting pattern to save two rounds this spring- one in a strong wind and the other to stop a bad bleed to the right. Both rounds were some of my best golf this year.

Swinging to me feels like a left hand baton twirl- Super Max’ed out Accumulator #3- all pull and twirl.

Hitting is an out and out driving of the clubhead down through the ball- all right arm, right shoulder, right everything via PP3(head) and PP1(shaft)- malice on the ball with a club.

Both patterns don't look all that different from Store to Finish, either.

So, are you pulling and twirling or pushing and driving? Can’t see physics.

golfbulldog your argument has far from sold me yet i'm afraid. In 7-3 when Homer talks about the position of the right forearm he says 'should' he doesn't say it separates hitting and swinging. To me it's still an ideal. from my own experience i can get my right arm in all sorts of funky positions and still swing.

Back to 7-19, the text you quoted doesn't mean a great deal on it's own as it does not specify what the manipulation is. But Homer does seem to go on to clarify:

"Clubhead Lag can be established in three different ways:
-1. by resisting the Backstroke motion for Drive Loading
-2. with the Start Down motion for Float Loading
-3 by "throwing" the club against the Lag Pressure Point at The Top for Drag Loading"

Theres no way he;s resisting the backstroke for drive loading, lucky number 3 for me...

Just for purposes of more info -
Remember in 6-C he states the loading of clubhead lag is constant, that is the loading continues throughout the stroke. So lag manipulation refers to establishment, producing and maintaining. Establishment detailed above, and maintaining or producing by drive (indirect or direct) of centrifugal force (swing) or of triceps muscle (hit).

Since it is hard to tell about the type of drive, IF you are going toTRY to determine hitting or swinging, maybe look at hinge action on MOST shots.
Reasoning: Hinge action CERTAINLY does NOT determine hitting or swinging, but angled is natural consequence of muscle drive, and horizontal natural consequence of centrifugal force (hence MOST shots). Then again they could manipulate hinge action on every shot and you are still uncertain.

Hi Danny, not trying to convince every/anyone - just amusing to read over 30 posts discussing hit or swing for Cabrera with no consensus opinion formed and no mention of the loading action.

"6-C-2-0. CLUBHEAD LAG
is the "Secret of Golf" technique -without it the Line of Compression (2-0) cannot be sustained (3-F-7-B). "

So clubhead lag is the core of STLOC.. which would suggest that its establishment - ie. loading ( and it maintenance as per SECgolf) are key to the discussion of any swingpattern.

So much of the discussion has revolved around the use of accumulator 1 defining hit or swing ( probably because that is the key accumulator used in hitting/ pushing the pp3 ...ie. PP3 behind the shaft).... but 4 barrel swingers use it as well... presumably once the swingers pp3 has re-rotated back the quarter turn and is behind the shaft just prior to impact.

If this is the case then accumulator 1 should not be the defining characteristic for hit or swing if it can be common to both.

Nobody has a perfect definition... that is why there were so many differing opinions... 12 piece stuck his extremely well informed neck out and went for hitter, others saw swinger...

All i am saying is that the loading of lag is key component in the discussion and the manner in which you make/feel the shaft stress should really govern your other components... hinge action is a semi-natural secondary to what has gone before ( ie. a pure pulling swing will tend towards horizontal but can be over-ridden and pure hit with simultaneous release will tend towards angled but can also be manually over-ridden)...

What would be really interesting is to have a definition of what we mean by hit or swing, then work out a way of assessing players ( in whatevr way you like) to decide what they are doing...

Good Post. When the hitting vs swinging comes up, my understanding says that technically, it is black and white. What is the basic intent of the right arm (accum #1) - to move lever actively or to move lever passively. Right there in 7-19 and 10-19. Also assuming a person is a pure hitter or swinger, there is absolutely no way to tell which unless you are in that person's mind. There are clues that ONLY MOST of the hitter or swinger population might have, but that's it. You can't assume against exceptions.

Can't be done. This has been the one thing asked by forum members on any TGM forum since the last century. :) Everyone want a "list."
The Intent of Push or Pull is invisible. The Geomtery is the same- that circle doesn't change- the motion is very much alike. The End of the swing is different on full shots and might be the closest part of the swing that one can tell if a TGMer is Hitting or Swinging. Tour guys are different- they all compensate some form of a pull. Tour guys never studied TGM, never had to decide if they pushed or pulled- they are pull full shots.

Maybe in a few years some real TGM kids grow up and make the tour. They will be the first ones that will know the difference. Nobody (AIs) had a clue to what the Hit stroke could be until Yoda swung forth from the Swamp- and that has four years ago. We live in a cross roads of golf and G.O.L.F. instruction.
We all have an opportunity no Tour player ever had- to build a machine to 'our' specs. Tour players will always have something we will NEVER have- frigging TALENT. They can out play anyone and always could. But that is changing and TGM-Lynn Blake-and others are making noise.

As for Loading Lag- you better load lag- was they even a question about it?
Body-Hands-Club, Impact. Lag is great, now thrust it.


The elephant is very like a tree, a wall, a fan, a snake and a rope. So are parts of The Golfing Machine.