Swingers right shoulder and Accumulator 4
 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oh184bHGkpM

What do people think of the movement of the right shouler - with particular reference to the initiation of accumulator 4 release.

What feels do you think players might get if they were to stop making an "over the top" motion and make a more Hogan/conventional on plane motion?

I have my own thoughts about what this shows and the feelings that I get when I attempt to do this... but interested in your thoughts.

Thanks:golf:

References
I edited this clip from clips already on the internet. Hope nobody minds... The initial clip is from Shell Wrld of Golf ( I think) and the animation is apparently based on Hogan swing from work done by another AI (Greg McHatton (same AI class as Yoda i think!) and a university department - I think).

Who created the Model? Hogan appears to have more Right Arm Bend at Impact than the Model.

Hogan has a Straight Line Delivery Path. One feeling might be that You're hitting to Right Field.

I don't know boss . . . . there's not much right field in Hogan's motion . . . his hands work back up and in as fast as anybody that has ever played the game.

It has to do with HOW you release #4 . . . Hogan releases #4 more down his chest vertically than "out" . . . that's one of the main reasons that his arms look so connected to his body and why his handle stays low through the ball.

At what point in his swing do you think 4 is being released?

I would say that 4 is not being used if he mimics "the old two-hand basket ball pass" (p.98 of Five Lessons, 1957)

There's no question that it is being released or the club would go right over the ball . . . the question is in what fashion is it being released . . .

Test drive it . . . look at somebody like Nicklaus or Hoch vs. Sergio or Hogan . . . for your hands to work that close to your body #4 has to work different.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=KXnv2KsSKVY

http://youtube.com/watch?v=FqI6IzDdpZM

For the club to get around and the handle to stay low the left arm has to work different . . . watch how much lower the club "exits" for Hogan vs. Jack . . . Jack's club and hands come up thru between his neck and ear . . . Hogan's are below his shoulder . . .

To get there you gotta move a lot of stuff different . . .

-more pivot rotation, less lateral movement
-shoulders working more level, not as tilted through impact
-arms staying connected to the torso into impact and thereafter
-more right arm bend at impact, and later right arm straightening
-head remaining relatively in position in the downswing, that is, it doesn't move left (targetward) in the beginning of the downswing, and then back up as you get close to impact

The Basketball analogy is used to emphasize only to feel like you're using both Hands through Impact.

The #4 Accumulator gets activated as soon as the Right Elbow begins to straighten.

"And the position of the Club at The Finish (Station 3 12-3) is the precision destination of the Downstroke “blast off” from the Top. It is not just Impact “fall out”. Impact must be kept incidental to The Stations."

Lets re-write that in dummy language:
The position of the club at the finish is a precision destination, and is the result of Understanding and Preparing to continue Plane Line Tracing of the #3 Pressure Point through to Low Point and beyond. This precision destination is planned from the Top by preparing to Blast the Left arm off the Chest at impact so that the Left Arm and Hands continue down Plane to Low Point while the Left Shoulder simultaneously continues to move back and up. That's one reason why the Right Elbow needs to remain bent at Impact in order to allow the Level and Bent Right Wrist to continue Downplane and Straighten with the Blast Off.

During Release, the Right Arm begins to Straighten (Throw-Out) and thus moves the Left Arm (#4 Accumulator) back to approximate body center for impact, but they should not remain low around the body after impact because they will be pulled off plane by the Shoulder Turn. The Gyroscopic effect of CF wants them to stay On Plane but is hard for people not to try to steer the Club. Bending the Plane Line after Impact has disastrous consequences just like Bending the Plane Line before Impact.

The Left Arm needs to Blast off the chest so that the Club continues On Plane and Down Plane. The Blast Off (Vertical Motion) Shows you how much open your shoulders should be at Impact so that the Thrust is On Plane. If the are too Closed, Then the Thrust will be to the Right of the Plane Line and If Too Open, to the Left.

Furthermore, if your Blastoff is On Plane, then your Club will continue on plane to the finish and finish behind you On Plane and not be Horizontal to the Ground like most Golfers, unless something else interrupts that too.

How much of the left arm has to be in contact with the torso for pp4 to be unreleased?

Hmm? you better drop some bread crumbs so you can find your way back.

How do you "unrelease" it? Keep in mind it is the master accumulator . . . 4 . . . . then 1, 2, 3.

Hawkish
 

Hey B-Unit

you are right...Hogan's hands go left like a pick pocket rounding a corner, but his thrust has to be down and out as he still stands "in" from the ball. I think his down and out thrust is so forceful that his horizontal hinge action and finish swivel stand in sharp contrast to anything remotely out! You smellin' what i'm brewing?

His swing was controlled violence...me likey! :golf:

I'll put that another way. It is not unreleased - it stays unreleased until it is released. A basketball is not just thrown with hands, but with the arms as well (as shown in the three drawings at the top of p.99 of Five Lessons) A throw with the hands and arms pulls the left arm off the chest. Of course it is somewhat different in golf since the left arm does nothing (Tomasello).

Bob,

Hands go in club go out . . .

Do you think he was a horizontal hinger? I'm not sure haven't really looked.

He seems to have right much #3 Angle through the ball which means the clubface doesn't close as fast right? I'm not sure . . .

Hogan at Impact
 

Is this what is meant by a proper pivot sequence into impact...hips ahead of shoulders ahead of arms ahead of hands ahead of clubhead.:)

[quote=12 piece bucket;50558]Bob,

Hands go in club go out . . .

Do you think he was a horizontal hinger? I'm not sure haven't really looked.

He seems to have right much #3 Angle through the ball which means the clubface doesn't close as fast right? I'm not sure . . .


Hey Rufus,

Club...what club? Club goes where the hands go! I know what you are getting at pal o' mine. Swinging, using the belly button plane may have something to do with the hands taking a nose dive left of Jane Fonda! You think minimal waist bend is a tip for longevity?

[quote=okie;50560]Charlie,

Question for you . . . are the hands excessively left or are the on-plane?


also . . . don't let the tall set up fool you . . . Freeze Mr. Hogan at the top . . . he ADDS Waist Bend for sure.

Word.

Melvin

Dude! Where do we get the footage to go with that tumbnail? Could you link us up? I gotta see that . . .

hg = stud

I'm not worried, you can worry for me if it fits your disposition.

12p...watch closely your 2nd shortcut to youtube on your #6 post.

Word . . . saw that . . .Thought maybe you had the whole swing.

Thanks for putting that pic up . . . really good. How do you do screen shots like that? I need to figure that out.

Mr. Hogan Again
 

12p...check these out:)

stop video....printscreen.... paste to powerpoint... adjust size...save as jpg's:)

Back on track...Thanks for the comments but...
 

The things I was interested in were the way the power package is transported by his pivot initially...with the hands, shoulders and clubhead moving approximately equal amounts... up to the bit where it goes frame by frame...

I am seeing accumulator 4 release (and some loss of his extra left wrist cock) as the reason that the shaft moves awy from the right shoulder... place your arrow/cursor finger on the right shoulder at this point and see how little it moves compared with the hands and clubhead....

So everything together at the beginning then much more hand and clubhead movemennt whilst the right shoulder moves little (not stationary...just less than the initial movement...so I think it slows to cause release of acc4)

But to maintain lag pp3 pressure/straight plane line tracing etc it starts moving more....just before impact and after that.

I see acc. 4 as a blast off of the left arm from above the nipple line to below the nipple line...so it happens when the shaft starts to move away from the right shoulder and the relative movement of the right shoulder decreases...especially compared with the left shoulder...

Sounds too confusing...too rushed..off to work...sorry ...maybe explain better later.

Great work and thank you for the video to still frame capture trick.

UPP in 50° Ohio (for a day)

The 10th frame doesn't show the typical Hogan post impact "yank the Club to the inside". Observe that the right arm looks almost parallel to the base line of the plane.

I find it more efficient to think of my Pivot in terms of only the Address, the Top and the Finish - the three Stations of 12-3. The reversal of the backwards pivot begins before reaching Top and the loading and unloading of #4 happens without conscious thought or effort on the way to Finish.

If you could look at the Blobman from above, you would see the shoulders are essentially parallel to the plane line at impact. So, while the shoulders at Impact have moved more down than they were at Address (due to Axis Tilt), they have not moved more out toward the plane line. This may suggest that the more profitable right shoulder swing thoughts (if any!) would tend more toward "down" and less toward "out".

Lined up at the top?
 

In the old Power Golf, Hogan stated: At the top of the backswing
a line extended from the end of my grip through my left arm would
extend straight to the ball. This means that my swing is neither too
upright nor too flat. If the line would extend beyond the ball my
swing would be too flat. If this line would extend short of the ball
my swing would be to upright."

If have not found the above mentioned in Hogans later writings.
For years I have experimented with the concept but have had
problems getting the aligments. When I applied the Missing Piece
of the puzzle (the Hogan Move), I found that the lower body shift
forward set me into a position to obtain the agliments. The pictures
of Hogans swing in this post appear to show the "Hogan Move" very
well. Thnks for the great pictures.

The question, Did Hogan stay with his at top aligment after he
made his swing changes?