TGM perfect?
 

What do you say to what Michael Jacobs says about TGM, that it is old-fashioned in some areas:

--

3D analysis of ball - club - body has provided a lot more valid scientific information that The Golfing Machine does not provide at the moment.

To name some quickly:

Hitting & Swinging

Hinging

Heavy Hit

Geometry of the stroke

Component List

Would love to see it get updated!!! We will probably get into this area much more in the winter time

Michael Jacobs, GSED

Some draw attention to themselves at the expense of others. Some because of their own merits and accomplishments.

Did his comments help you decide to buy one of his Instructional DVD's?

IMO, to fully understand the nuances of TGM you need a guide, someone who spoke with, and learned under Mr. Kelley. Perfect? Absolutely not, but Lynn Blake understands the direction Mr. Kelley was headed, along with the compensations needed to apply the wonderful work today. That is why I'm here.

Kevin

It is a shame these provocative posts are made for no other reason but to attempt to create controversy where none really exists. Mike Jacobs is a GSED who has a lot of insight into teaching. He was asked what areas of the golfing machine need updating and he gave an opinion based on his interpretation of technology Homer did not have available. Why not focus on the great instruction this site provides, rather than to create pissing matches. A lot of golf swings out there, lots of ways to do things, pretty worthwhile to look at all of them now and then even if you have preferences.

The meanings of the word "perfect," or "flawless"
 

Excuse me for applying a bit of a literate reflection based on personal knowledge of the concept of "perfect," combined with my very happy experiences with TGM as taught by adherents to this site.

In ancient Hebrew, with it's small vocabulary, words meanings are based on context. The ancient Hebrews simply did not say the name of "God" since it was blasphemous for the "limited" human to speak of the "unlimited" Deity. So, to get to our point, when we speak of "perfect" we are automatically speaking about the meaning of the Hebrew word "perfect." Nothing on earth, in this sphere, can be without fault.

Wanna guess as to that meaning? "Perfect," referred to what was mature or good. Mature, sensible, good, true, effective, helpful, towards the sensible, all those terms describe the owners and operators within the sphere of golf instruction on this site, as far as I can tell.

Does that mean that Mr. Blake and this site cannot improve? In business at American Express, we often practiced the "20-80" rule. Twenty percent of a person's talents yield about eighty percent of their effectiveness. No human is good at everything. Every person or organization has "core competencies" which are the heart and soul of their effectiveness. Should this site improve? Sure. But improvement should be directed along the lines of enhancing the "core" of the TGM instruction "as performed here."

We all fight the same set of problems of limited time and resources. With unlimited finances, what would our careers look like? Would we engage in a career at all? Hmmm. So then, how do we make a living given our limited skills and coin? If another person believes in their soul that they have a good idea for this website, let them fly it up the flag pole and see who salutes. If no one accepts the ideas, and the person wants to go ahead, well then, knock yourself out! Step up! Throw down! Launch that rocket ship!

Meanwhile, I've never been closer to breaking 80 and shooting par than I am now. I have all the tools I need on this site, and lots of intelligent, knowledgeable help. If a person wants to help me, fine, use this forum and let's see your insight and skills. If a person simply wants to prattle on about how things could be better for the purposes of self-aggrandizement because they are immature, well, we are busy.

Patrick

new
 

I'm very green with regards to TGM. I would love if it is "perfect". Therefore I didn't like what Michael Jacobs had to say. But he hasn't actually explained anything by saying this.

Hi "AA." You are welcome to try this site out!
 

What do you usually score when you play? What is your age, physical health? What sre your golfing goals?

I have one leg shorter than the other by 1.75" and an artificial hip with 11 hip operations. I have lost over 25 lbs. since December of this year, but still need to lose another 40 lbs to be at a "good" weight. I started in March with this site having shot in the 90's last summer with a 21 hcp.

My hcp. index is now 13.8. I shot lower than my new index all last week so I expect that'll change again. :)

My last 6, nine-hole scores on a par 71 have been 42, 40,40, 44, 40, and 40 using the TGM techniques I have learned with a certified TGM instructor here near Philly, and Lynn Blake trained instructors in Minnesota, and instruction from great people on this website. :golfcart:

So, welcome! Use the search functions on this forum if you need info and get the TGM book if you can and ask questions!

Patrick

I'm 62 (from Norway). Played for 21 years. Have had 17 in hcp, now 21. Have always been a hitter - but unfortunately with an awful OTT out-to-in steep downswing with a bent left wrist, so it's about time to get a grip on this.

Thoroughly Modern Millies
 

Bring on the 'New and Improved' Truth!

Homer Kelley would be the first to encourage additions to his Body of Knowledge. In fact, he did exactly that:

"Because of questions of all kinds, reams of additional detail must be made available -- but separately. And probably endlessly." (1-H)

He would, however, be a formidable competitor to those who would prove his basic premises wrong. That argument would start first with a correct understanding of the premise in question. Unfortunately, that understanding is almost always the first stumbling block of "those who would be king".

Regarding things "old fashioned" . . .

While we're at it, let's update those pesky Ten Commandments, too. This "Thou shalt not Lie, Kill, Steal, Envy, etc." business is getting rather old. As all who observe "modern" society can readily see.

I mean, it's so different now, right?

Right??

:confused:

Or the U.S. Constitution for that matter. Frankly I find a lot more reliability these days in the Golfing Machine than either the Ten Commandments or the Constitution. Not one sentence in the book indicates Homer was anything but open minded and non-dogmatic. "Complexity is far more acceptable and workable than mystery is." What a great sentence.

The Enemy Within
 

Homer Kelley was a very cool guy. His understanding of Golf Stroke Mechanics had no progenitor. Nor, to date, even a parallel.

Meanwhile, we have today a captained handful of TGM 'nouveau-sect' focused on their own negative bias: Namely, their molehill perception of miniscule error against the mountain of irrefutable fact that is absolutely correct.

Few, if any, of those comprising this sect (which joys in confrontation) ever met the man himself. I find it very curious: These misfits -- they welcome the characterization, at least with regards to TGM -- readily acknowledge their debt to Mr. Kelley. Yet, they then turn their entire attention to damning his work.

All while flying the TGM colors.

An odd world, isn't it?

:sad:

"in context"
 

I'm very happy to know that I'm "perfect". That's what I've been telling my wife for years. :angel:

The audio recordings of Mr Kelley reveal a man who was not opposed to contrarian lines of thought..... He was patient , thoughtful , respectful, gracious. He'd say things like..."well maybe, perhaps I missed something there, but....".

Those "buts" were often pretty revealing though. Defining, in fact. It was often a matter of definition. He'd let people come to their own conclusions. As they must.

genius
 

If there are corrections to Einstein's Theory of Special Relativity, I won't consider him an idiot. And, I doubt that Einstein thought that Galileo was an idiot.

Without Homer, where would Lynn be? Without Lynn, where would I be?

I owe my knowledge to great people before me. And, I don't need to prove them wrong to massage my own ego.

Wow, "Air Norway." That's what your friends will call you.
 

Air, when you start filling up the cup with high soft wedges and putts from everywhere, they will mistake you for Michael Jordan's adopted brother from another mother.

I know you will explore different parts of this site. My top notes to myself are posted elsewhere but a frozen, and I mean rock hard frozen bent right wrist and right forearm takeaway, extensor action, and PIVOT are important things.

Really, we all hope you enjoy this experience. Please examine the You tube and gallery free vids. I highly recommend the "Alignment I" DVD set and the premium videos on "The Address Routine." I wish I had seen these videos right away. I would be shooting par by now and even more obnoxious.

I am 52, suave, and really, really charming, unlike Daryl who has other skills, lucky for him! :laughing9

Patrick

Patrick,
Thanks for the advice.

I would think twice about thanking him. He only took that job as a mascot to curb his cross-dressing urges.

Daryl, I showed Mom what you wrote about our basement!
 

She said to tell you to stop being jealous of your smarter, better looking younger brother. She's mad because you don't send her those vanity license plates you used to make in Joliet.

She hasn't changed your room since you left for the state correctional home for troubled youth, you know. Anyway, please call her so she doesn't worry about you anymore.

Would you like her to send your footie pajamas now that the weather is cooler?

She sends love to your wonderful family. They are awfully good to you. :)

You two guys have a lot of fun together?
But seriously:

Some say that (most of) the (best) golfers of today are both hitters and swinger in their swing. Does that also make them switters (which was something one originally should avoid, I thought. But what do I know?)

A typical Golf Swing uses many components and procedures. Mixing them, some swinging and some Hitting is typical of most swing patterns.

Swinging is when CF Uncocks the Left Wrist and Hitting is when Right Arm Thrust Uncocks the Left Wrist.

But generally I would reserve the word "Switter" for those who mix incompatible procedures and end up with a less than desirable swing, for example, like Patrick :) . But I don't know the history of the word.

But a 4 Barrel Hitter is one who does both in one swing. I don't think that a 4 Barrel Hitter would be called a "Switter".

Hi Air. Daryl and I tease because it is an acceptable form of male bonding
 

But, you should know that Daryl, OB Left, KevCarter, JerryG, Bernt R, Bam-Bam, Yoda and Yoda's Luke and lots of others here are serious golf swing aficionados to wit:

A little gem from Daryl in our archives:

Acceleration in the Golf Swing (Total Motion) is a three stage procedure. 1,2,3.
• Acceleration in all three stages is very brief.
• Acceleration is going from “0” to its maximum velocity of the Body Part.
• Each of the Three Accelerating Body parts begins at Zero in spite of being carried along by the previous body part.
• Once the Accelerated body part is traveling at maximum velocity, it continues only for another brief moment. Any body part that is accelerating will slow down the previous accelerating body part.
• The Faster that the previous body Part Accelerated, the Faster the next Body Part Can Accelerate.

Right Shoulder acceleration is the first stage.
• Lowering your Left Heel to the Ground accelerates your Right Shoulder Down Plane.
• If you lower your Left Heel and hold your hands at the Top, your Right Shoulder will accelerate faster when it’s released.
• If you lower your Left Heel before your Hands reach the Top and hold your Hands at the Top, then your Right Shoulder will accelerate faster still.
• If you lower your Left Heel, then sharply bend both knees before your Hands reach the Top and hold your Hands at the Top, then your Right Shoulder will accelerate faster still.

Shoulder Acceleration is very brief. While the shoulder Accelerates, the Right Elbow does not move closer to the Body. The Right Elbow (part of the Power Package) stays in the same relationship to the Body as it had at the Top (or end) of the Swing.

Arm Acceleration is the Second Stage.
• When the Right Elbow moves to the side or in front of the body (Push or Slap) your arms are accelerating.
• The Farther your Elbow travels, the greater the velocity.
• The Thrust is Downward.
• The Elbow moving into your body does not Throw the Left Arm off the Chest.
• The Elbow moving toward your body does not release the club.
• Arm acceleration picks up where Shoulder acceleration left off. So, the higher the shoulder velocity, then the higher the Arm velocity. Low thrust-low velocity, High thrust-high velocity.

Clubhead Acceleration is the third stage.
It is the Fanning of the Right Forearm Forward for both Hitters and Swingers. This is where Hitters apply muscular effort to Slap-Punch the Ball. This is where Swingers want five right hands because the accelerating clubhead is slowing the hands.
• This acceleration stage is when and where Release Begins.
• This stage is not called hand acceleration. From the Right Elbow all of the way to the Clubhead, with a level and bent right wrist acts as though these parts are cast together into a single unit.
• This is the stage when your Left Arm moves away from your chest
• Your Right elbow is straightening
• At this moment, your pivot is stressing-out from the entire sum of Lag.


If any of the phases of acceleration wimps out, the #3 pressure point Lag Pressure will fade. If you pull down using your arms from the top of your swing, you just lost stage 1 and 2 and prematurely release the Club. The only thing you should use to hit a golfball is the Golf ball collector cart at the range.


WOW...This really looks like a Right Sided Game!




Anyway, I was just thinking about it.


Lot's of stuff to practice in that quote! Enjoy! :)

Patrick

Lots of stuff.
By the way is Jeffery Mann a source of valuable information?

http://perfectgolfswingreview.net/index.html

Even when he's right, he's wrong. The best I can say, is that he's consistent.

I'm not sure what you mean.
Does that mean that ou won't recommend his review papers - where he says he has studied TGM and he wants to give us information on what he has learned? I have read some of it (How to power the golf swing). Will the stuff here and what he writes differ much?

Well, I don't want to criticize his effort, but I've never seen someone come to so many wrong conclusions, about so much, in such a short amount of time.

I've tried to read his information, I really have and I've tried to give him the benefit of doubt as much as someone trusting can, but when I read his material, tears begin to flow from my eyes and I run out of Kleenex before I get to the end. It's so painful. It's torture.

I'm sorry to hear that. I thought I could trust him, so I took most of it to heart. Do you want to tell me what he has misunderstood and where he has gone wrong, in case I have to forget some of the things I have read.

If what he says works for you, then good. Any information you find needs to be confirmed by you, by trial and error into your own swing.

But, if you'd like an example, then examine his analysis of Right Arm Swinging.

He devotes um-teen paragraphs to the subject and clearly states that TGM lacks in-depth analysis (that's his first mistake), and finally groups "Right Arm Swinging and Hitting" under the same topic (that's his second mistake). Why doesn't he explain that the difference between Right and Left Arm Swinging is the "Center of the Stroke radius" (not to be confused with the center of the Swing).

What differentiates the Left Arm Stroke from the Right Arm Stroke is that the Left Shoulder is the center of the Left Arm Stroke and the Right Elbow is the Center of the Right Arm Stroke. Why doesn't he know that? This is basic stuff.

He doesn't explain any of it this way because he doesn't understand it. He would have been more accurate if he grouped Hitting and Swinging together because at least they both use the Left Shoulder as the center of the Stroke Radius.

So what are you to do with this information? How can his information help you?


The following is a statement made by the Dr.
Are we to assume that Ben Hogan is a Right Arm Swinger? I don't know what medication the Dr. takes, but I want some. :naughty:

My advice to you, as it is for anyone, is that it's important to understand and be able to apply the core concepts of the Golf Swing. Dr. Mann will continue to learn and he'll no doubt adjust his conclusions because of it.

I dont'know what works. I'm pretty stuck with all my bad habits. so I have tried to orientate me out of this mess. One-plane swing, Don Trahan, Bobby Eldridge.. you name it and also Jeff Mann. But what I fill my head with and what my body continues to do are two different things. I have bought TGM (from Ben Doyle with inscription) and have ordered the Alignment Golf DVDs and I will make an atempt to start all over again. In the meantime I am trying to sort out what to learn and what to forget.

Well, there are much better people on this web-site than me to learn from. There are people here that can really take you from point A to point B. I'm just a "Bumper on a Pool Table". I'm not the "cue ball".

You will hear a lot of interpretations and opinions on the internet by people that do not know the golfing machine or have not spent time on the lesson tee. You won't get that here. Start with the free videos and move into alignment golf. I learned so much from Yoda's basic motion video that I still go back to it whenever I have issues. If you are looking for ways to practically interpret the book, this site is fantastic. Remember you are trying to develop a pattern with components. Easier to accomplish with an instructor, but possible on your own if you do not take shortcuts. My progress has leapfrogged every time I have seen a golfing machine instructor. One visit with Kevin Carter cleared up months of questions about the release.

Who would've guessed you are such a softy?
 

Mom never said anything about that when she was telling me about your footie pajamas! :laughing9

There are probably not so many TGM instructors here in Norway?

I tend to read and make my own conclusions. That is Daryl's opinion but I have found many of his papers to be much better than your going to find on the net.

The book will give you lots of components in the golf swing but I am afraid without quality instruction the problems that you have will likely still persist.

This is not a knock on any material out there but in my opinion reality. TGM is the best though in terms of explaining what is going on in the golf swing but without a good instructor reading and then incorporating is very difficult. God knows there are few that have tried harder than I have the past year or so.

She didn't tell you that I have an "attitude" at times? :laughing9

I see that this book is difficult and will need some hard work. I'm going to work on things I know I need to correct: A flat left wrist. Will start with the basic motion and go from there.

(I would really like to get rid of the OTT and the steep out-to-in down swing. I'm hoping that the hitter style can help me in achieving this.)

Air, you can post videos from your phone/camera on this site.
 

You may not have TGM instructors in Norway, but you have several of the best in the world right here!!!!

Post a video of your practice of "basic." then "Acquired Motion" then "Total Motion." Send it to Yoda, too, and pay him his fee for an hour. I'll wager that you get so many diagnostic exercises from him that you'll have the most fun ever golfing with a purpose!

The folks here will kibitz and you will search out what Yoda indicates as your challenges and you will "know" the bio-mechanical realities of your swing vs. an effective golf swing.

Air, let me give you the short course on TGM. You are learning about how to deliver the sweet spot of the club, via the plane of each club in the most bio-mechanically effective manner possible for you as an individual.

Patrick

I am sure you are a golf fanatic like the rest of us who participate in the forums.

I think Homer Kelly created a book that many of us " golf fanatics" can discuss and debate about. The cool thing is there are many ways to swing a club to create the same desired effect.

My opinion of J Mann, his site is well organized and has some thoughtful ideas. I have read a lot of exchanges between him and other posters, and he does disregard some people with his attitude.

My "problem" is that I like to be educated. That also means that explanations are always welcome, who every they come from (but it has to be correct and understandable..)

You guys should come to the event that Brian Manzella is having in Arizona. He's going to have 3 Phd's there to discuss the science of the golf swing. I think it would be a good opportunity to share information, and to come closer to the truth. The problem with TGM'ers is that many presented the 'yellow book' as perfect, and as a scientific book. Technology and the rigors of the scientific method will allow teachers of golf with new tools, better ideas, and more truth to share with the golf populace. It seems like TGM'ers are getting left behind. The earth is not flat! Say what you want about Manzella (he can come off a lil strong), but he is willing to admit when he's wrong, and he's always looking for the absolute truth. TGM'ers seem to be in love with the dogma of the 'yellow book', and unwilling to look past the yellow book for answers---- for truth.

Good luck to you all!