Stricker Down the Line
 

This is the same shot, but on one video I marked the travel of the Sweet Spot. On the other, I used a Plane Angle. I thought the geometry and camera location were good enough for conversation.

For someone that doesn't swing left, he has made some coin. His stroke is one of my personal favorites because of it's simplicity.

What do you think?

I think I want to see this ;-)

videos added
 

The videos have been attached to Ted's post.

No superhuman lag or hip flexibility, but a beautiful motion.

Was he hitting a draw or is it the camera angle?

Anyway it seems like his clubhead is on a pretty flat plane after transition. (Not flat as in horizontal; Flat as opposed to curved). Something that is probably very good for consistency.

I have a feeling that Stricker would appear to be swinging left if the camera was located in the plane of his clubhead path. There are traces of it even in the current perspective and he seem to hold his wedges pretty well past impact.

I think it is equally interesting to look at the hand path. And perhaps even more interesting - to look at the relationship between the handpath and the clubhead path.

I just watched a sequence of Garcia. That would also be an interesting case. From what I can see his clushaft plane angle changes several times during the down stroke. Garcia's hands are clearly over and then under the plane of the clubhead. Since he is arguebly one of the better ball strikers on tour I have a feeling that his swing can teach us something about the physics and mechanics involved.

Under the Plane
 

He is obviously in a Square-Square (Stance Line-Plane Line) at Address. Yet, he 'traces' (with the Sweetspot) a Closed Plane Line (10-5-E). Unless he is doing that deliberately to produce a Draw shot, he is (dare I say it? :confused1 ) . . .

Underplane.

I'm sure the Trackman folks could tell us if his horizontal "inside-out" and his vertical "down" were perfectly offset by his "negative" face angle. Too bad there wasn't a machine on him. Then we'd know for sure.

Thanks for the post and vids, Ted. Great stuff.

What do you guys think?

:golf:

sign me up
 

Whatever his afflictions, I'll take some...Costco size, if you please. :eusa pray: :eusa pray: :eusa pray:

I'll be first to be thrown head first into the briar patch.

Deja Vu All Over Again
 

This passage seems familiar, BerntR. Didn't you write this a while back? Just wanted to let you know I'm paying attention!

Thanks for all your posts. 'Preciate them!

:laughing9

Awesome! Very helpful!
 

Is that a TSP takeaway, and a Single Shift (TSP to Elbow Plane) Down stroke?

Thanks, Ted!
:)


ICT

To make him even more sick, his putting stroke is magnificent.

Garcia
 

I've done the 10-5-E Plane and it's corresponding camera location. The results are surprising. You can't appreciate the geometry until you film one swing with multiple cameras (one under, one on, and one over Plane).

The camera angle of Sergio on the same day and tee is not as good. The camera is under Plane.

Glad to hear that, Yoda :salut:

I speculated about something similar in a more general form. Then reported that I saw traces of it in Hogan's stroke.

But where Hogan has perhaps a little of this I believe Garcia has it in spades. At one instance his clubshaft is almost horizontal and then it steepens a lot towards impact. At least that's how it seemed on a video I checked. Seeing how pivot driven Garcia is (and now that I've just learned that he is a poster child for swinging) it seems unthinkable that his changes in clubshaft plane angle towards impact is caused by steering.

There is also something about Garcia's stroke that gives me the feeling that he is "all in" power wise. There seems to be no holding back there and everything he does seem to be geared towards generating speed and lag pressure. He seems to make a bigger effort in each full stroke than many of his competitors, and I often get the feeling that he could gain some precision and consistency if he tamed his power somehow. But he doesn't need to ease down to be precise does he? So it can't be raw power. It is power with precise alignments. Perhaps Garcia's stroke can teach us something that is more or less present in a lot of good strokes?

Here you can watch Garcia "in the cube":
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0sZ6QQAjc0M

Stricker-Less
 

And now back to our regular programming!

:laughing9

Stevio Garciker
 

How did that happen so quickly?

I heard it here first , folks.
 

So in one you've got a Plane Line drawn for Club Shaft Plane of motion considerations with the camera seemingly set up pretty well all things considered. Situation normal we see this all the time right. You'd normally tend to think that he looped it under plane. But those guys can hit it with their feet and bodies pointed any which way, right.

So where's he pointing his plane line really? Is that what you mean, Luke? Dont judge a book by looking at its foot line or stance? Those inclined plane lines are subject to parallax and further more we dont really know what he is trying to do and we shouldnt make any assumptions given his setup, foot line in particular.

Second one is Sweetspot plane of motion only which shows a nice little 2D ish circle seen in perspective ...which means that circle has a plane and a plane line which appears to point right to some degree. If it points far enough right of where the ball started you've got Divergence, tilted backspin and a draw.

Hmmm. That sweetspot orbit is more telling isnt it! The path of the sweetspot vs face angle is what its really all about I guess right? Well Ill be. In the photo below his shaft even appears to be planed to the sweetspot orbit far better than the assumed plane line . I gotta do some more thinking on this.

Or maybe Im all wrong again and Stricker just totally pooched that shot. Where'd it end up anyways, Luke.

2-f
 

"2-F PLANE OF MOTION All the action of the Golf Club takes place on a flat, inflexible, Inclined Plane which extends well beyond the circumference of the stroke – in every direction. The full length of the Clubshaft remains unwaveringly on the face of this Inclined Plane – Waggle to Follow-through. Every other Component of the Stroke must be adjusted to comply with that requirement. See Sketch 1-L. That includes the Right Forearm. See 5-0. The player must hold the Forearm in the Feel of the same plane per 7-3, dynamically in-line. Picture the javelin thrower with the right elbow and On Plane right forearm leading the hand toward the target (Delivery Line) all during Delivery. See 6-B-1. The Right Forearm of every Hacker comes into Impact too high – pointing beyond the Delivery Line during Downstroke (2-J-3, 7-3). Study 2-G and Components 5, 6, and 7.

Regardless of where the Clubshaft and Clubhead are joined together, it always feels as if they are joined at the Sweet Spot – the longitudinal center of gravity, the line of the pull of Centrifugal Force. So there is a “Clubshaft” Plane and a “Sweet Spot,” or “Swing”, Plane. But herein, unless otherwise noted, “Plane Angle” and “Plane Line” always refer to the Center of Gravity application. Study 2-N. Except during Impact, the Clubshaft can travel on, or to- and – from, either Plane because the Clubshaft rotation must be around the Sweet Spot – not vice versa. So Clubhead “Feel” is Clubhead Lag Pressure (6-C) and is a Golfing Imperative. (2-0). If Lag Pressure is lost the Hands tend to start the hosel (instead of the Sweet Spot) toward Impact – that mysterious “Shank.” When in doubt, “Turn” the Clubface so both the Clubshaft and Sweet Spot will be on the same plane at Start Down. Both Planes always pass through the Lag Pressure Point. Study 6-C-2-A.

There are some very simple but very accurate checks for being “On Plane.” Whenever the Clubshaft is parallel to the ground it must also be parallel to the base line of the Inclined Plane which is usually (but not always) the Line of Flight also.

Otherwise, the end of the Club that is closest to the ground must be pointing at the base line of the Inclined Plane – or extensions of that line, even if they must be extended to the horizon."

So, the Clubshaft is much less important to me than the COG application.

And, I agree with you that there are many questions when looking at a video: Stance Line? Delivery Line? Intended Curvature? Intended Trajectory?

I find this thread fascinating and desperately want to participate, but I've got nothin'. :crybaby:

I just want to be sure you know there are other interested onlookers. Thanks Ted! :salut:

Kevin

Regardless of his plane of motion and the camera angle there should be a symmetry around the drawn plane line before and after low point. If he were swinging on a flat plane, that is. His sweet spot is clearly inside of the drawn line towards impact. Yet he stays on the line past impact. If he were moving the sweeet spot on a flat plane he should be moving outside the line past impact.

Hey Bernt I dont know how to draw the plane line over top of the dots.....maybe Luke or D can.

But when I hold a pencil up to where Luke drew the plane line in this picture below I see the dots on the far side, post impact, emerging above the plane line but seemingly way closer to the plane line. If you know what I mean. Anyways Im thinking it could be perspective, illusionary. What do you think?

If you take a CD and draw a straight line down its center , 12 to 6 o'clock on the dial and then turn it to an oblique angle similar to Mr. Strickers sweetspot plane of motion ......would not the far side of the cd look closer to the center line than the near side?

Just wondering ....... Either that or he bent his Sweetspot plane of motion , bent the CD down the middle.

Well now I don't feel so bad about being under plane with shoulders closed with not much of a divot.

OK, so I'm asking.
 

Is SS an Elbow Plane guy? Is the Plane determined by the # 3 PP location as it travels? Would that then make hip an almost TSP ?


ICT

sure looks that way to me

I see the same as you. He seems to be on the plane that Mr Skywalker drew after impact and inside before. I can't understand how this is possible withoug some plane bending going on.

Thanks GMBtempe.
 

Are you measuring the travel of his # 3 PP?


ICT

I just look at impact. Nicklaus came down the TSP but at the very end made a shift to an elbow plane impact.

Elbow Room
 

But remember, guys, the Elbow Plane is not an absolute. Some Angles are steeper than others, especially through Impact (versus Address).

These steeper-than-normal Elbow Planes can approach the TSP Angle and, in fact, remain on it. In which case, there has been Zero Shift from the Top. One example is Brian Gay.

:golfcart2:

getting it right.......
 

Thanks for this Yoda Ive been wondering about that one. The later editions definition of Elbow Plane got me mixed up.

How bout the TSP is it a range of angles too?

Would I be correct in thinking that though a Rotated Shoulder turn "can locate a TSP angle" its unlikely to be able to locate a TSP angle that is also an Elbow Plane angle? Is this one of the reasons for your preference for "Flat back", Standard Shoulder Turn?

I know this is slightly off topic but ..........since we're talking all around this lingering question of mine.

Anybody got any good photos of jack shifting to the elbow plane?

(or tsp/elbow plane, whichever one he was on - or maybe both)

Does Phils TSP get close to elbow plane to?

Follow the thread below CG.
 

You can have several movies to examine!

http://lynnblakegolf.com/forum/thread7215-39.html #'s 381-383


Thanks so much GMBTempe, Yoda, OB, the Academy! Angle at Impact! How simple, elegant, bio-mechanically logical and congruent. Awesome and satisfying like Dean Koontz or Tom Clancy or the 12 step program! :)

I have to break out the Brian Gay Premium videos I have!

ICT.

Another video from the same spot. Kuchar was arguably the best ball striker on tour last - impact is about as square/square as it gets. The back swing is unusual but the downswing is great.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vMjQU...eature=related

Matt's Way
 

Thanks, MB.

First, take a look at Matt's Underplane Backstroke at 0.05 (pause it, then do a few 'doubleclicks' until the shaft is parallel to the ground). Note how inside the club is and how you can see the full length of the clubshaft as well as the clubhead.

Then, play on to his his picture-perfect On Plane Downstroke at 0.12. With the shaft once again parallel to the ground, you see nothing but the sole of the clubhead, i.e., no shaft. Ideally, that's what you should see in the Backstroke, no matter how Flat the Plane. But . . .

As Matt demonstrates, as long as you have the talent to realign at the Top and bring the club down On Plane into Impact, you're golden!

:golfcart2:

Also I think, in the case of the Golden Bear, he did favour a fade. With the most vicious release he could produce as a kid. He is swinging left but the clubhead is thrown out right. That will look like a planeshift at impact.

Maybe it is but maybe it isn't. Same thing with Hogan basically, although everything was flatter with Hogan.

Does the ball REALLY just get in the way or does ball location make a difference to timing etc.... ? In any case, that's the only factor I can think of that can "justify" a late planeshift. The more speed the club picks up the harder it will become to shift plane downwards. Because of CF. But you can let it happen upwards. By just letting the clubhead drive the hands out and up. That would be the opposite of what Homer K. recommended I think, when he told us to swing the hands and not the club.

Anyways; If you (within reason) are swinging or hitting as hard as you can - can you do a late planeshift downwards? I don't think so. If the hands are low through impact there's something else going on IMO. And it probably was initiated in the transition as all good things in a full motion.

always learning here
 

Ive been Hitting now for about 2 yrs on and off,my BIG fault has been hooking from time to time,mainly when under pressure.
Watching Stricker has confirmed what i thought i was doing wrong,i have been keeping my clubface far too square to plane angle on t/away and down into impact.........how did i think this was correct at the time,i just dont know?,could it be i misunderstood the book,or misread some instruction somewhere.....could be hitting stickman,maybe i just didnt understand the hitters pattern,obviously,mind you,when i was doing something right from time to time the flight of golf ball was like a dart

Now,if I was to describe the hitters pattern to a mate,how would i tell a mate to take away and get to impact IN LAYMANS TERMS

A swing from Memorial 2011, Steve has changed a few things, I see more structure (sort of flying wedges), no longer under-plane approach to the ball and right forearm on plane at impact. His right shoulder is almost on plane in the dowswing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rxQnVq0sUuU

I could be wrong, let me know what you think !

If you keep your right arm bent well into the DS, like these guys, then you can stay in your posture. If it straightens out early your machine will pull up so you don't hit six inches behind it.

Seperates hackers and pros IMO.

stricker swing is absurdly simple, isn't it?

still a little under
 

The camera perspective is really bad, making it difficult to see much. It seems like the camera is around 6 feet off the ground and aligned with the ball, instead of the plane. The camera angle is the reason I really liked the first one that I posted. It's so hard to find good camera angles on TV. But, I do LOVE that motion!

Maybe, Steve is using the "W" plane...

...for "Winner!"

one for Ted
 

Morning Ted, when using video do you put the camera at hand height and through the players hands? Hope all good with you.

good to see the stirring replies to my post,thanks heaps,tells me a lot

Ok Brownman
 

Ok Brownman, I'll bite. Are you meaning single wrist action for startup?
That's what Stricker uses, in my opinion. Hands remaining vertical to the ground during startup - could the hook be from single action backswing and then, instead to the gradual rolling of the clubface to followthrough for the hitter, you're simply over-rolling aka sequenial release (swinging?)

you don't mention what clubs you're doing it with, but are you taking proper impact fix for hitting?

Regarding the club face, hitting is the gradual and constant rolling of the face, while swinging is the uncocking of the left wrist THEN swivel to impact...

Hooking is caused by a Divergence between face angle and clubhead path. Your path sounds like it might be pointing too far right assuming the ball starts off on line and then hooks left.

Hitters using Angled Hinging will tend to have the back of their left hand or clubface (if you prefer) square to the Arc not the Plane Line, if I understand you correctly. Keeping the face "looking at the ball" so to speak, would be akin to Vertical Hinging ........something I did for years after reading the golf magazines of the 70's and absorbing their "square to square" advice. Straight back from the ball and keep the face looking at the ball. Aka "Steering". How I wish I could get those years back.

I cant remember the Hitting Stick man but perhaps it showed the closed club face compensation associated with Angled which would give it that Vertical Look?

Remember also Hinge Action is really a left hand alignment to one of the three Basic Planes not a face angle thing although at times they can be very similar .......but not when one employs Grip Rotation for balls played back of Low Point , an iron shot say. The guys who describe Hinge Action as a club face alignment might might be trying to simplify the complex but it can lead one down the wrong road and quickly. Which might be the case here, Brownman not sure.

Similarly, the commonly held belief that the " face should be in line with the left arm at Top to be square" , is not necessarily correct. Perhaps for balls played at Low Point with a specific grip type but its really Grip type and Grip Rotation dependent also. See 7-2, 6-H-0 for more on Grip Rotation.