Stack & Tilt, 5 Simple Key and Tilt, Extension and Rotation
 

This is my belief, like to hear everyone opinion.

5 Simple Key (5SK):
One of the founder, Chuck, was a GSED and what 5SK is doing is 100% based on TGM but expressing it in a different way (layman term).

5SK:
Station Head => Stationary Head of the 3 Essential;
Weight Forward => Lag of the 3 Imperiative;
Flat left wrist => Flat left wrist of the 3 Imperiative;
Diagonal Club path => Plane of the 3 Imperiative;
Club face control => Flat Left wrist, Chapter 4 and 5

5SK claims that they are not a pattern or a system but a must for a correct golf swing. I also found there are a not of similarity with Stack and Tilt on what they actually teach:

1. Flare both feet out;
2. Right hip slant up on the backswing;
3. Extension rotation and tilting on backswing;
4. Extension at impact, belt buckle up...

What I found in the book is it cover everything, but the "how" is sometimes lacking. For example, rotation shoulder but how? In the Stack and Tilt and 5SK, it explains that you need extension, rotation and tilting in order to get a stationary head and steep shoulder turn for the rotated shoulder turn. I also couldn't find these term (Extension, tilting etc) in the TGM but I believe somehow is cover somewhere.

Appreciate all comments to make it more understandable on the Golfing Machine.

The Flat Left Wrist allows the creation of a Primary Lever which can be Hinged (not necessarily) at the Left Shoulder causing the Clubface and Ball to rotate around the Impact Point which causes the Ball to respond to an Angular Force as though it were struck with a Linear Force.

Only TGM teaches the "How" and "Why".

Above is an explanation "Why" you need a Flat Left Wrist. The "How" is a Completely different matter. First, your "Flying Wedges" must be aligned at 90 degrees through the Impact Interval. Don't try to keep a Flat Left Wrist at Impact while swinging at 100 MPH, because you can't. When the "Wedges" are Aligned at 90 degrees through Impact, the Left Wrist will be Flat no matter how hard or soft you Swing.

The "5 Simple Keys" or "S&T" doesn't teach any of this.

I totally agree with you. The flat left wrist also provides the clubface control. How about the extension, rotation and tilting that said is needed for the stationary head and the 90 degree shoulder turn with the spine? For example, if only tilting it will move your shoulder centre and therefore head moves to the right. Does TGM provide this explanation (tilting, extension and rotation) somewhere in the book?

BTW, it has been very quiet in this forum for past few months. This forum is very helpful and super for information and learning.

It does, but I don't know if you'll understand given my poor description below. It all comes under the heading "Role of the Right Shoulder".

The Right Forearm needs to be On Plane at Impact. Every good Ball-Striker does this instinctively. Each Plane Angle (Shorter Clubs have Steeper Plane Angles) has a Stance Width to keep the Right Shoulder the needed distance from the Ball so that the Right Forearm can be On Plane at Impact by arriving through its Angle of Approach. If the Stance Width is too narrow, then you must either "Tilt" to the Right (Accommodating the Right Forearm Angle of Approach) or add a Swivel through Impact because the Right Forearm is coming in to high.

If you're "Tilting" to the Right, then "Widen" your Stance. By Widening your Stance, you'll no longer need to tilt and you'll stop Tilting.

Some players shift their Hips forward and they learn to Tilt to Improve their Approach Angle. Others simply learn that Tilting to the right lets them approach the ball from a shallower angle and using a narrower Stance makes all things easier.

Either way, these compensations correct a faulty Right Shoulder distance from the Ball which causes a Faulty Approach Angle which is caused by incorrect Stance Width.

Want to prove this? Take a narrow Stance and Play the Ball far forward the left foot way beyond the left shoulder. Hit a few balls but move the ball forward until you no longer tilt backwards while striking the ball. Then move the ball and your right foot back 5" at a time and strike the ball. When the ball and right foot has been moved back a few times and the ball becomes opposite your left shoulder, look how wide your stance has become.

Hint: This is what "Impact Fix" does for any club length on any plane angle.

That means you do not need a lot of shift if your stance is correct and the right forearm is on plane, in contrary to what they said you need a lot of shift and almost all amateur does not have enough shift coming down. (In TGM, rotated shoulder turn also indicated shiftness turn.) Professional players such as Tiger, Nick, etc.. were used to show the ton amount of shift in their downswing before impact.

I think S&T has morphed away from the Tilt in order to better fit the mainstream, but they cannot get away from the fact that to make it work, you have to stand up through the shot, which violates the most primary fundamental of a good golf stroke - a steady head.

Do they teach standing up? My understanding is it's more a thrust of hips/pelvis towards the target. Sorta it's only the lower body that's standing up...hehe

Still not quite a clear "how" for me...hehe

How do you keep the wedges at 90 degree alignment?

Great post there...

This is the difference between a good ball striker and a poor ball striker. Wedges at 90 degrees. The Bucket drill teaches 90 degree Wedges. It's easier than the drawing below. Put a Red Dot on the inside of your Right Wrist. Put another Dot on the Outside of your Left Wrist. The Dot on the Left Wrist will Face he Target at Impact. The Dot on the Right Wrist will Face upwards at Impact. If you rotate the Right Wrist to the Left, so that it faces the Target just like the Left Wrist Dot, then your Wedges are Aligned at "0" degrees.

The Swing Plane is a Angled Plane. The Angled Plane is at Right Angles (90 degrees) to the Vertical Plane. The Primary Lever is Aligned to the Vertical Plane (Left Arm, Wrist, Clubface) at Impact. The Right Forearm is aligned to the Swing Plane at Impact and Separation (best if always aligned to the Swing Plane).

Dot on R wrist facing up at IMPACT? Is that a feel thing coming into Release until Impact, or reality? Seems impossible in reality.

Very much a reality. Look at any Pro at Impact. The right wrist is always up and not rolled like the left wrist.

Ok. I see the inside R wrist pointing to target in that picture Daryl. Maybe the dot should be on inside of R forearm near the elbow?

At Release or R forearm in front of R hip/thigh, yeah I believe the inside R wrist should be pointing up the sky. Your holding a bucket image is excellent feel.

Stay with it. The so called expert in the Pic above doesn't have his wedges at 90 degrees. Use the bucket drill.

Yeah, using it for some time now. I use a grip where both hands/palms are square to the sweetspot. In order to square and throw out the clubhead from "holding the bucket" at Release, I have to square my R hand/wrist. I do this actively; otherwise it's all pushes especially with longer clubs.

Widen your Stance. No more Pushes.

Yeah, tried that. Prob with that for me is I have to be very exact on the stance, otherwise it's a guess if push or pull. Hate it. I want to eliminate one side of the course. So looked for other options. Plus that wider stance makes me skull the ball with a driver at times.

That option is to be more down to elbow plane at Release. Still can't do it all the time, but getting there. BS is the tweak for me to achieve that.

just for reference this below makes zero sense....
and that picture of that guy, its just awful.

Of course you know that he's a G.S.E.D.

What are they teaching these guys? I agree, he doesn't have great Wedge Alignments.

That isn't what they tought me... and I guarantee its not what they tought him and its not in the book except as malfunction. Either way u shoild take it down its a real eyesore and does not represent the golfing machine very well people see a big picture like that and get carried away thinking that's what homer told us to do

The real problem with that photo is that it will cause a student to over accelerate the hands &B: instead of getting the passive hands ahead of the club head at impact by using the pivot only.

So what did Homer say about that (wedge alignments especially the R flying wedge)?

I see you're an advocate of pure swinging, pure pivot...and from other forums you're a Hoganite...:)...so my question is, why and how do you think Hogan used his so-called 3 R hands? I went the direction of believing he said the truth about his feels, so I researched the way where I can use the pivot as he said (hips starting) and not stall the pivot when come time for PA1/3 R hands...and I think it's achieving the reverse-k position on top that's key to this. No way we can stall the pivot even with PA1 use for as long as we keep the head super still from the top to impact. No way. At least if your clubhead isn't under plane and on its way to gouge the ground.

Hip starting on the downstroke:

A lot has been talking about the first move is the hip slide. If the hip goes too fast with the arm of clubhead not able to catch up, it will cause mishit most likely to the right.

With the driver, I feel the right forearm start down together with the hip automatically slide forward. It is the feel but actually is the right shoulder comes down first then forearm straighten slightly, then rotation ... So which has the control on the downstroke? Forearm, #3? It shouldn't be the hip eventhough it is the first move?

Why not the hips? It automatically flattens the plane, which starts the arm shoulder and elbow and hands down properly with the shaft shallowing and sweetspot opening. If we make the BS steep enough, when the plane flattens due to the hips firing, everything's gonna be on plane.

Arms getting behind wouldn't even be an issue, in fact it would be desired as it gives PA4/pivot longer interval to release, which means more clubhead speed at impact.

Hogan had an active left shoulder - he whirls through impact with the right elbow bent and parked on his right hip at release. The pivot uncocks the LW, not right arm extension nor a throwing motion with the right forearm. The right shoulder straightens the right arm in the follow through, which felt like a throwing motion to him. As you can clearly see here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G4DCZuAj5Mg

Respectfully disagree with that. IMO Hogan uses his R arm, but not like TGM R arm thrust, but like throwing a baseball half underarm half sidearm just like he said. More like R pec curl type of motion, instead of R triceps push.

Reason IMO Hogan's R arm/elbow is so bent is because he has no L pec muscle at all plus he stretches that L arm towards nearer his R shoulder in BS until Startdown. (Is that an EA R arm push or pull?) Then he starts rotates/pivots at Startdown, then 3 R hands once he's on elbow plane.

Remember the golf swing DS is very fast, if you sequence it like pivot and R arm throw, it will look exactly like Hogan's bent R elbow if you have no L pec mass at all like him.

Then why does the right hand not move away from the right shoulder? The right shoulder and right hand are moving in unison, and that doesn't happen in a throwing motion. I.e., if he were throwing at release, his hands would outrun the right shoulder. In MORAD terminology, it's a cp swing. Think of a hammer thrower - he pulls his hands inward against the pull of the weight on the chain and he's still pulling when he lets go. He can't throw because of the chain.

Because he is already rotating hard. If you throw ONLY, yeah the R elbow would straighten. But remember he tried to fire hose hips at Startdown, which really cranked up the rotation, and his L side extension allows that rotation to get even faster. Pure PA4. Then at Release/hands hip height, he starts thinking fire that R arm in sidearm/undermine throwing manner.

IMO, the more of what he did in BS, the RFT, the longer the R elbow would be bent and closer to the R hip.

Remember this is a very fast motion. The R elbow suddenly straighten starting visually right at Rekease/shaft parallel in DS. From thereon it straightens slowly as the DS is very fast. His R arm and R wrist is very very straight in followthru. Note also that his shoulders don't turn/rotate as much in finish like Immelman for example and Tiger circa 2000. So I'd say it's more PA1 for Hogan from shaft parallel, but he's also still rotating due to the earlier hip turn crank.

Btw...this is IMO why HK prefers 4-1-2-3.

It's not humanly possible to rotate hard enough from release to impact to prevent the right hand from moving farther and faster than the right shoulder, if he's throwing. He isn't throwing the right forearm, it's getting thrown. The right arm is straightening in the release interval, not because he's throwing, but because the LW is uncocking from rotational force.

Apparently you forgot how fast the motion is when you previously said that Hogan starts thinking at release point! :clock:

His rotation slows down with the R arm throw, but it's too fast that you wont notice.look at his finish. It's very different compared to so done who really tries rotating the pivot thru impact (Immelman, Tiger 2000).

That R arm thrust puts so much power into the Release of the club that Hogan's pivot rotation doesn't slow down!

And MJ, I think it's not a R triceps push...it's a R pectoral/chest curl...

Since it's a R pec curl, the R shoulder doesn't slow much or is affected much...you can still rotate, or at least that's what I feel...hehee

It looks different only because he's on a shallower elbow plane!

It's all pivot thrust from release to impact and no right arm thrust of any kind. Any kind of throwing effort in the release interval would interfere with, not help, the freewheeling shaft.

The difference I'm referring to the way his shoulders turn past impact. His shoulders doesn't seem to turn fully up to its max limit, unlike Immelman. For me, this shows that he's not into pivot thrust anymore during release. His pivot at that time is just a byproduct of the earlier hip start at Startdown.

The 3 R hands thrust or slap doesn't interfere IMO, in fact I believe it helps release and throw out the shaft from parallel to targetline to inline.

Remember his shoulders turn quite steep during release thru impact, so his pivot doesn't help much in releasing the shaft.

And there's a bonus...he was able to release the shaft with power since 3 R hands is clearly stronger and faster, but also he was able to consistently square the face thru impact bec using the 3 R hands delays face closure.

Look at this -

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K59-7oC8E5U

Young Hogan in the 1st few Swings, 5 Lessons Hogan at around :37, old Hogan at 1:12, in every instance he makes a max rotation of the shoulders in the follow through up to his personal flexibility limit. If Immelman or anyone else goes farther, it's only because they are more flexible.

I don't quite know how to express how 180 degs wrong you are here. The shoulder rotation and lack of any right arm throwing action in the following is clear. The right arm moves at the same rate as the shoulder turn, which is not vertical as you say. You have decided you want to throw through impact and feel it's necessary to justify it by Hogan's Swing - you can certainly throw if you choose, others do it, but you'll have to look for a swing model which isn't cp.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G4DCZuAj5Mg

Relax MJ...:D...nobody is trying to justify something with Hogan. Hogan himself said 3 R hands for power. So I'm just trying to do what he said, his feels. Just trying to follow him. IMO, just turning his shoulders is not his feels/intent.

I'm not saying it's all 3 R hands. It's hip turn, and immediately thereafter shoulders, arms and hands. Actually when you do this you'll turn faster, but not as far as your shoulder turn flexibility allows.

Remember that Hogan's chest has no pecs at all, so his L arm is more across and nearer the R shoulder than most, which means his R elbow is more bent than most. And he swung really fast. So that R elbow looks more bent than most at any stage of the DS.

But look at how they unbend. They unbend later (since they're more bent before), but they really straighten forcefully thru impact and after until his hands are above his head. That wouldn't happen if you're just turning your shoulders/pivot.

If you just rotate your shoulders, and flat as what you believe, how do you think Hogan monitored the clubface and made sure it goes DTL that long, prolly longer than anyone in the game, and with such low hands and big PA3 angle at impact while turning so fast with lag maintained until hands in front of R thigh?