Role of The Pivot

[6bmike]

You misunderstand extensor action- it moves nothing. It does not move the left arm just tugs it, stretches it like a stubborn tight bungee cord that needs constant attention to remain pulled.
That is not adding. Adding is removing rhythm by forcing more hand into the stroke near impact.
Ben says no “adding.” Yoda says “no try just do.”

That implies that the right arm does little. Pivot alone? I have to tell the right hand to extend the arm.
Watching Homer the right arm goes from an "L" position to a straight one past impact. How can Homer not be adding???

Seems to be a difference of opinion between BD, Yoda, BM and CE? Do I need to ask Homer?

And what opinion are you referring? Read 1-F. The action of the right arm is always driving due to the unfolding of the right elbow but in a Swing Stroke it adds no muscle power. I think LB, BD, and BM would not disagree on this.

Many people thought that Canton would reveal different ideologies between Ben, Brian and Lynn. It didn’t. Homer would have loved it. Ask him.

I still feel the pivot is the most misunderstood TGM procedure.

[tongzilla]

Originally Posted by mb6606

You misunderstand extensor action- it moves nothing. It does not move the left arm just tugs it, stretches it like a stubborn tight bungee cord that needs constant attention to remain pulled. That is not adding. Adding is removing rhythm by forcing more hand into the stroke near impact. Ben says no “adding.” Yoda says “no try just do.” That implies that the right arm does little. Pivot alone? I have to tell the right hand to extend the arm. Watching Homer the right arm goes from an "L" position to a straight one past impact. How can Homer not be adding??? Seems to be a difference of opinion between BD, Yoda, BM and CE? Do I need to ask Homer?

And what opinion are you referring? Read 1-F. The action of the right arm is always driving due to the unfolding of the right elbow but in a Swing Stroke it adds no muscle power. I think LB, BD, and BM would not disagree on this.

Many people thought that Canton would reveal different ideologies between Ben, Brian and Lynn. It didn’t. Homer would have loved it. Ask him.

I still feel the pivot is the most misunderstood TGM procedure.

The Right Arm has contributed nothing but Motion for the Swinger, as opposed to Right Arm Action for the Hitter.

It cannot be 100% passive because of Extensor Action.

The push from the Right Triceps that pulls the Left Arm straight is constant. This steady effort to pull the Left Arm into a fixed length does not increase during the Downstroke or Release.

Just because you see the right arm straightening during the Follow Through doesn't mean you're "adding". Centrifugal Force (as opposed to active Right Arm Thrust for the Hitter) uncocks both the Swinger's Right Elbow and Left Wrist during Release.

[6bmike]

Leo, you are becoming a tour de Force.

[Delaware Golf]

Yoda,

Please put the Tomasello May 1992 video (from his Myrtle Beach studio) that Lee Deitrick gave you on the LBG Classic Movies section....it would add nicely to the debate that is being discussed on this thread regarding the role of the pivot and right arm.

DG

[Mike O]

Originally Posted by Yoda

The Thrust of the Downstroke Shoulder Turn supplies the initial acceleration of the Lever Assemblies (6-B-4-0).

Yes, but this initial acceleration exists for both Hitters and Swingers, whether you're using Right Arm Thrust or Pivot Thrust.

Tongzilla,
First, I would think that we need to acknowledge that Lynn spot on answered you previous question. You've followed it with a statement- and possibly some implied question- which makes it tough to respond. Although, I'm assuming it's a little foggy and you're making a statement for others to confirm or clarify (could be wrong on that). Regarding your statement, I would think, strictly speaking and per his reference in 2-M-3 regarding "Or to Power Package Thrust add the Shoulder Turn per 2-M-4.", that semi-quoting you "the initial acceleration exists for the Hitter IF he/she is using a 4 barrel stroke, but not if it's just accumulators 1,2,3. In contrast, the swinger would normally have Pivot Thrust for a 3 barrel full stroke. In summary, I would emphasize that if you are using Right Arm Thrust nothing says that you will have Pivot Thrust- you only have "this initial acceleration" if you are using Pivot Thrust- and for Hitting that would be 4 barrel. That's at least the basic template- I'm using words such as normally and strictly speaking because you really have an infinite number of options and possibilities depending on the length of the stroke and what accumulators you choose to use, etc.

Finally, this is a discussion of one of the mechanics of the golf stroke- not a discussion of the procedural method used to swing a golf club.

[tongzilla]

Regarding your statement, I would think, strictly speaking and per his reference in 2-M-3 regarding "Or to Power Package Thrust add the Shoulder Turn per 2-M-4.", that semi-quoting you "the initial acceleration exists for the Hitter IF he/she is using a 4 barrel stroke, but not if it's just accumulators 1,2,3. In contrast, the swinger would normally have Pivot Thrust for a 3 barrel full stroke. In summary, I would emphasize that if you are using Right Arm Thrust nothing says that you will have Pivot Thrust- you only have "this initial acceleration" if you are using Pivot Thrust- and for Hitting that would be 4 barrel. That's at least the basic template- I'm using words such as normally and strictly speaking because you really have an infinite number of options and possibilities depending on the length of the stroke and what accumulators you choose to use, etc.

Thanks again Mike for reading between the lines. I didn't write in a foggy manner intentionally, but sometimes I feel I get really good answers that way, rather than asking lots of specific questions.

This was the reason for my confusion: I've seen a post from Yoda somewhere that says
"both Swinger and Hitter 'Crank', i.e., at Start Down, each tightens the Left Side Tension that supplies the initial Pull of the Downstroke."
Yoda does not mention that this initial pull is only experienced by the four-barrel Hitter with the new acc#4 (as opposed to a three barrel hitter), which was what you were saying in your previous post, correct?

Going a step back...
“Or to Right Arm Thrust add the Shoulder Turn per 2-M-4."
I assume the above statement is directed to the 3 Barrel Swinger (Acc #2/3/4) who wants the add the final missing Acc #1 to his pattern. Am I right?
So, Yoda says , "The Thrust of the Downstroke Shoulder Turn supplies the initial acceleration of the Lever Assemblies (6-B-4-0)."
But the 3-Barrel Swinger already has this Downstroke Shoulder Turn Thrust (as per my first Yoda quote above), am I right?

Once again, thank you to Yoda and Mike for your patience.

[Yoda]

Yoda,

Please put the Tomasello May 1992 video (from his Myrtle Beach studio) that Lee Deitrick gave you on the LBG Classic Movies section....it would add nicely to the debate that is being discussed on this thread regarding the role of the pivot and right arm.

DG

I'll revisit that idea, DG. Thanks.

[Mike O]

Originally Posted by Mike O

Regarding your statement, I would think, strictly speaking and per his reference in 2-M-3 regarding "Or to Power Package Thrust add the Shoulder Turn per 2-M-4.", that semi-quoting you "the initial acceleration exists for the Hitter IF he/she is using a 4 barrel stroke, but not if it's just accumulators 1,2,3. In contrast, the swinger would normally have Pivot Thrust for a 3 barrel full stroke. In summary, I would emphasize that if you are using Right Arm Thrust nothing says that you will have Pivot Thrust- you only have "this initial acceleration" if you are using Pivot Thrust- and for Hitting that would be 4 barrel. That's at least the basic template- I'm using words such as normally and strictly speaking because you really have an infinite number of options and possibilities depending on the length of the stroke and what accumulators you choose to use, etc.

Thanks again Mike for reading between the lines. I didn't write in a foggy manner intentionally, but sometimes I feel I get really good answers that way, rather than asking lots of specific questions.

This was the reason for my confusion: I've seen a post from Yoda somewhere that says
"both Swinger and Hitter 'Crank', i.e., at Start Down, each tightens the Left Side Tension that supplies the initial Pull of the Downstroke."
Yoda does not mention that this initial pull is only experienced by the four-barrel Hitter with the new acc#4 (as opposed to a three barrel hitter), which was what you were saying in your previous post, correct?

Going a step back...
“Or to Right Arm Thrust add the Shoulder Turn per 2-M-4."
I assume the above statement is directed to the 3 Barrel Swinger (Acc #2/3/4) who wants the add the final missing Acc #1 to his pattern. Am I right?
So, Yoda says , "The Thrust of the Downstroke Shoulder Turn supplies the initial acceleration of the Lever Assemblies (6-B-4-0)."
But the 3-Barrel Swinger already has this Downstroke Shoulder Turn Thrust (as per my first Yoda quote above), am I right?

Once again, thank you to Yoda and Mike for your patience.

Tongzilla, In regards to:
“Or to Right Arm Thrust add the Shoulder Turn per 2-M-4."
I assume the above statement is directed to the 3 Barrel Swinger (Acc #2/3/4) who wants the add the final missing Acc #1 to his pattern. Am I right?

Read 2-M-3 again- which is where this quote is from. The statement is directed to the 3 barrel Hitter- i.e. Right Arm Thrust - Accumulator #1 and then to make it a 4 barrel Hitting procedure you need to add the Pivot Thrust on the downstroke or as he puts it here "add the Shoulder Turn per 2-M-4", to add the final missing Acc #4 to his pattern.

Mike O.

[Mike O]

Tongzilla Quote:"
This was the reason for my confusion: I've seen a post from Yoda somewhere that says
"both Swinger and Hitter 'Crank', i.e., at Start Down, each tightens the Left Side Tension that supplies the initial Pull of the Downstroke."
Yoda does not mention that this initial pull is only experienced by the four-barrel Hitter with the new acc#4 (as opposed to a three barrel hitter), which was what you were saying in your previous post, correct?" Unquote

Most of what you quote Lynn above, is really his place to clarify, etc., and Lynn is very, very good, so if he finds it important and has the time, he'll explain any question you might have.

However, I would clarify a couple of things that you said.
Yes, I was talking about adding #4 to a three barrel (1,2,3) Hitter. Using #4 or not, really is the basic determination of whether you are a 4 barrel Hitter. Remember that using it means that you're loading it - not just going through the motions.

In addition, you said "this initial pull is only experienced by the four-barrel Hitter with the new acc#4...."
You don't really want to use the term pull- for a number of reasons. Pull is swinging and now we're using the term for Hitting- not good. If you look at 2-M-4 or 6-B-4- Homer doesn't use the term pull or push for #4 accumulator, it's always for Hitting or Swinging- Thrust or Acceleration, etc., the basic nature of accelerating #4 is the same for both Hitting and Swinging- in the mechanical sense (6-B-4 & 7-13). The Pull (Swinging) or Push (Hitting) are broader concepts for the overall procedure and not appropriately used in regard to the #4 accumulator. Of course, the whole thing (Hitting or Swinging) is drastically different and there are subtle differences between the two different #4 accumulators as a result of the context of the whole movement i.e. different loading procedures create different feels etc. Don't ask me to explain the subtle differences- practically speaking I don't think it's that important and I'm subconsciously aware of them but without some effort - wouldn't be able to answer your question. Plus, I never Hit. Not saying I don't know how, and not saying it's not a great procedure- I just don't use it.

Finally, every now and then I make some basic disclosures for clarification purposes.
1) I'm always open for interpretation or correction- no one's perfect.
2) I'm always giving only my viewpoint, not necessarily "THE GOLFING MACHINE VIEWPOINT"- and I'm always trying to be precise in the terms and help you or others understand the concepts of the Golfing Machine as I see them. That precision/clarification/viewpoint could be interpreted as nitpicky (yes), cocky (not the intent), or attacking (not the intent). I've been around enough that I think most to everyone understands that- but when you're not in person with someone - one on one- and you're using the forum to correct other peoples concepts, based on your viewpoint- it can get a little awkward. I've always approached it as if I was on the otherside and with my personality I would disregard any perceived issues and really appreciate the "direction". That said Tongzilla, as someone alluded to earlier in this thread- you are doing a nice job of picking up the concepts - a lot of progress!

[tongzilla]

Read 2-M-3 again- which is where this quote is from. The statement is directed to the 3 barrel Hitter- i.e. Right Arm Thrust - Accumulator #1 and then to make it a 4 barrel Hitting procedure you need to add the Pivot Thrust on the downstroke or as he puts it here "add the Shoulder Turn per 2-M-4", to add the final missing Acc #4 to his pattern.

Mike O.

Oh yes, that makes sense now. I should've read through Homer's codified English.

2-M-3: "Or to Power Package [Right Arm] Thrust add Shoulder Turn per 2-M-4" [Brackets by tongzilla]

I thought Homer was saying "if you want to have Right Arm Thrust, you need to add Shoulder Turn per 2-M-4". Which confused me.

So what Homer was actually trying to say was "if you already use Right Arm Thrust (i.e. you're a Hitter), and you want to add Pivot Thrust to achieve the Four Barrel Stroke, then add Shoulder Turn per 2-M-4".