A Ben Doyle Lesson -- Part III / Ball-Turf...Please

[Martee]

Actually I think the student needs to review this video. He should see that he is not always on the same wavelength as Ben is talking.

Like in the first vid, Ben wanted him to hit a chip and pitch, he tried a couple, not suceeding, then wanted to hit the full shot.

Ben keep bringing him back on track, but...

It would be interesting to see what the student is doing now and how much he has retained..

What I find interesting is that out of a large number of golf instructor I have watch give lessons, only a few IMO can give a lesson to the average golfer and expect success. The approach of the basics, drills, repeating it is something you don't see or I haven't seen that often. I know a few of the instructors here do it and it seem that they having glowing reviews and no negatives. This get up and full swing and fix it while doing that seems to be short sighted to me.

Hopefully the student picks up on it and benefits from these lessons for a long time in the future.

[brianmanzella]

OK...

What we have here is a bunch of people who really don't know Ben from Adam.

No offense.

Ben feels like it IS HIS DUTY to, as he calls it, "Never Come Down."

What this means is that he is going to KEEP DOING IT HIS WAY until the student gets it. Or until INFINITY.

He will not CHANGE his approach.

Ok?

Now...if the guy keeps taking lessons from Ben or goes home and watches the tape and keeps trying to do it....he WILL GET IT!
Ok?

Now, the other thing is, Ben is NOT TEACHING FOR INSTANT RESULTS.

He has been a "Destination Instructor" since Tiger was in diapers and Ben has been taping lessons for students to take back home to China or Atlanta or Greenland since video cameras were in three parts.

He OVER TEACHES ON PURPOSE!!!!

He wants you to have a tape FULL OF INFORMATION to take home and watch 10,000 times.

An interesting side note:

Ben gave a similar lesson to a good pal of mine way, way back.

I learned how to teach compression, flat left wrist, hitting it with your pivot and about 4,567 other things watching the video BECAUSE Ben "never came down."

Now, I 'come down' ALL THE TIME...it is MY STYLE. But it isn't Ben's.

If you want ah-ha video moments, watch a Brian Manzella video, if you want relentless adherance to the book, watch a Lynn Blake lesson, if you want relentless adherance to what Ben considers to be the "essence" (my words) of G.O.L.F. then order some Ben lesson tapes.

But...trust me, Lynn GETS ah-ha momments with strict adherance to the book ALL THE TIME and with Ben's adherance to HIS core beliefs from the book HE gets Ah-ha moments ALL THE TIME.

Ben just figured YA'LL WOULD LEARN more from a lesson like this.

TRUST ME.

[6bmike]

Relentless adherence???

My only disappointment with the video clips is not with Ben Doyle but with the student. I have watch many hours of Ben teaching- it is the foundation my education and have seen students ranging from seniors, blue haired ladies, pudgy men, to young guns, and not a one executed as poorly as this fellow. I hope this guy ‘gets it’ but I ask- why this tape?

Do yourself a favor, rip 50 bucks from the wallet and rent a tape from Ben, ask what he has, and watch it- you get three months. I might rent another, Ben tells me he has some good stuff teaching his grandson- that might be a good one.

Brian, what tape do you have?

[wanole]

What I did find that was interesting and an Aha-moment was when on the third tape the student said, oh swing with my hips and not my hands. Then he said now that rings with me. I can understand that. I said to myself, he's been telling you that since tape one.

At least he finally got it I guess. We have been learning this for a while so we new what to look for and understand somewhat the incubator and this was a good example of that incubator in affect IMO, even though he was being told word for word for an hour.

[brianmanzella]

I have about 100 hours of Ben teaching tapes "in stock"

and another 1000 hours in my coconut.

[Vaako]

Well - I still feel "it's not easy to produce a dramatic "Aha..." moment on demand in real life". This seems to be the case beyond golf education. Against any Lynn Blake or Ben Doyle or Brian Manzella I should be able to find 1000 PGA pros who can't - without braking a sweat.

Good choice as a Ben Doyle tape to post. It reveals his style very well - none of that fake magical transformation stuff one can see in some *cough*leadbetter*cough* tapes. This was sorta what I was tying to say earlier; Real teaching situation with no window dressing. Didn't mean to little Ben's teaching skills - I think I can understand what he is doing and where he is going with this student.

The whole situation is - to me at least - easy to read/relate to. Very educational.

Why some of you seem to think this guy is an A1+ dork - and somehow spoiling this/his lesson - I don't get it. Is this some dividing line between you good golfers and us club hacks?

If someone knows how this ended in real life - please share!


Vaako

[BerntR]

I just have to say it: This is a great thread.

Here we have a teacher who refuses to lower his standards - and a pupil who does everything he can to relate the stuff he already knows about the swing - with the stuff that Ben is trying to teach him.

In various situations in worklife I have been in the teacher's ans well as the student's shoes. I am not sure who is facing the greatest challenge - the teacher or the student. Anyway I have no problem identifying with both of them.

In addition to the tapes themselves, Brian's explanation of Ben's approach was very telling to me. But also the posts depicting the "every day" aspect of this difficult learning situation. A-ha experiences seldom comes without some sweat beforehand.

I don't know the end of this story yet. But I am quite convinced that if Ben's student finally gets it - he will appreaciate its value and he will be able to keep it.

[6bmike]

Why some of you seem to think this guy is an A1+ dork - and somehow spoiling this/his lesson - I don't get it. Is this some dividing line between you good golfers and us club hacks?

Vaako

This is NOT some dividing line. If you watch Ben teach other golfers on some of his rentals, you will see that instead of spending valuable time repeating himself, going over the same thing, Ben could move on and impart more knowledge on to us. Ben gets on a roll when he teaches, even he never knows what he will pass along at times, he needs to move along. But if he has to spend a hour getting a student to hit chips, pitches and punches the right way, that’s fine- to the student, but not as an instruction clip for us. It is a hour slice from Ben’s teaching life, but I think some of us wanted more.
Again, NOT Ben’s shortcomings, he did a great job with a tough student. This clip may work better for an AI or instructor to learn from than for non-teachers like us.

[Vaako]

Originally Posted by Vaako

Why some of you seem to think this guy is an A1+ dork - and somehow spoiling this/his lesson - I don't get it. Is this some dividing line between you good golfers and us club hacks? Vaako

This is NOT some dividing line. If you watch Ben teach other golfers on some of his rentals, you will see that instead of spending valuable time repeating himself, going over the same thing, Ben could move on and impart more knowledge on to us. Ben gets on a roll when he teaches, even he never knows what he will pass along at times, he needs to move along. But if he has to spend a hour getting a student to hit chips, pitches and punches the right way, that’s fine- to the student, but not as an instruction clip for us. It is a hour slice from Ben’s teaching life, but I think some of us wanted more.
Again, NOT Ben’s shortcomings, he did a great job with a tough student. This clip may work better for an AI or instructor to learn from than for non-teachers like us.

I haven't seen any of Ben's rentals you refer to, but understand these clips may seem a bit bland after seeing Ben on a roll.

The Chip-Pitch-Punch progression is topical right now - thanks to Brians "Flipper"-video. In that context - the struggle we see might prove valuable material to a lot of people.

But I think your last comment may be the real clue as to why this segment. This is after all TGM site with a lot of very TGM savy people around. The situation in the clips forces anyone w/ basic TGM knowledge to take the role of a teacher - no? - or you'll be bored to death. Once you turn the table around your analytical thinking process starts and...

"Why is the student almost allways throwing a full shot when Ben asks for a chip?"

Personally had much more success in that department here than for example with the Snead video.

Besides - who's to say you won't be an AI in a couple of years?


Vaako

[6bmike]

By all means, call Ben and rent one, ask what he has. I know he has some teaching Elkington, Bobby Campett and Grant Waite. Martin Hall was renting many- he rented numbers (I'm reading from Ben promaotion piece of letters from Hall) #75- #93, #96. Talk to Ben- he will tell you that he teaches EVERYONE the same way.

For What It is Worth--------> The 'under ground' CD "Martee Make Over" is the best CD out there. Parts of it are in the gallery- I get more out of Lynn explaining Swinging and Hitting then any other cd to date. .