Jimmy Ballards Book/Teachings

[6bmike]

I haven't tried to alter or modify any of Ballard's ideas expressed in his book.

Then how did you use The Golfing Machine information that failed?

As far as use of the hips is concerned, since I am a natural right-to-left player, I find that the faster I drive my right hip toward the ball on the downswing, the less chance I have to hit a hook.

Where is that right hip before you drive it to the ball? Has it re-positioned itself 45 * from address position, if so how?

Improvement goal? I'd like to be able to work the ball both ways more consistently. Draws are no problem but reliable fades are more difficult.

Texsport

Learn Hinge Actions- for a fade learn an Angled Hinge Action. It has a natural fade to the ball flight. (move it back with a closed clubface for a draw using AH)

You can use a Horizontal Hinge action with the ball moved back to produce a fade since the clubface hasn't finished closing.

Build a machine and you control the ball and control the game.
I can't imagine studying with a one suit fits all instructor.

mike

[Texsport]

Tex,

Hogan used a Snap Release throughout the successful half of his career....

....in fact, I don't think I've EVER seen a swing of Hogan where he wasn't using a Snap Release.

He didn't hook it later on in his career, I'll tell you that....

By generally saying, "later on in his career," I mean when he was the Hogan everyone knows....the "one of the greatest ballstrikers of all time" Ben Hogan.....

The Ben Hogan who, as Moe Norman said, "was the only other guy who hit it on my (Moe's) level."

The guy who arguably reached the highest level of pure skill of any golfer ever.

He didn't hook it! Snap Release.

Oh come on! Everyone knows that Hogan stopped his hook by taking enormous counter measures. The weakest grip in history and cocking his wrists so that the clubface was so open at the top he couldn't get the face closed no matter how hard he swung. In fact, he says he hit it better the harder he swung--meaning he almost got the face squared up. Only his tremendous athleticism and continuous practice allowed him to swing this way successfully.

If Hogan's swing was so perfect, how come nobody swings that way today?

The major fault or bad swing error for both Els and Sergio is absolutely a hook. Els tries to prevent it with slowed down swing timing and Sergio prevents it with very rapid leg and hip drive in the downswing. Both basically move the ball right to left all the time.

All IMHO.

Texsport

[birdie_man]

I don't wanna get into anything else about Hogan....

I'm just addressing how you said his Snap release led to hooks when it clearly didn't.

I don't care how much he opened his face as a "counter measure"....I don't care if "no one else can swing like Hogan" (*cough* bullshit....anything's possible).....

I just can't see how having a Snap Release would cause hooks.....it doesn't make sense to me at all.

Clubface causes hooks....so Hogan changed that.

And like I said.....from what I can gather I'd think a Snap Release would make it harder to hook.

....I don't know this for sure, but it makes sense in my head.

[Texsport]

Then how did you use The Golfing Machine information that failed?

Where is that right hip before you drive it to the ball? Has it re-positioned itself 45 * from address position, if so how?


Learn Hinge Actions- for a fade learn an Angled Hinge Action. It has a natural fade to the ball flight. (move it back with a closed clubface for a draw using AH)

You can use a Horizontal Hinge action with the ball moved back to produce a fade since the clubface hasn't finished closing.

Build a machine and you control the ball and control the game.
I can't imagine studying with a one suit fits all instructor.

mike

TGM machine didn't fail me as far as modifying Ballard. I tried swing adjustments using TGM way before Ballard. It's just that Ballard's ideas worked better for me.

My right hip is probably 45* rotated from address at the top of the backswing. Since I've freed up my left foot and allowed it to roll and lift slightly on the backswing i've eliminated any tendency to hang back/reverse pivot. Also, more weight transfer is required to make Ballard swing work for me. Fat or blocked shots would result without full weight transfer back and through.

I agree that one swing for all is not realistic but I also believe that everyone must slightly modify the basic principles of any swing theory to accomodate personal physique, strength, and timing issues.

Texsport

[Texsport]

I don't wanna get into anything else about Hogan....

I'm just addressing how you said his Snap release led to hooks when it clearly didn't.

I don't care how much he opened his face as a "counter measure"....I don't care if "no one else can swing like Hogan" (*cough* bullshit....anything's possible).....

I just can't see how having a Snap Release would cause hooks.....it doesn't make sense to me at all.

Clubface causes hooks....so Hogan changed that.

And like I said.....from what I can gather I'd think a Snap Release would make it harder to hook.

....I don't know this for sure, but it makes sense in my head.

I've got no quarrel with a snap release. Certainly many great players use it.

I only pointed out that Nicklaus, Woods and Sorenstam use a sweep release.

Texsport

[6bmike]

TGM machine didn't fail me as far as modifying Ballard. I tried swing adjustments using TGM way before Ballard. It's just that Ballard's ideas worked better for me.

What do you see as the "TGM way" to swing a golf club?

My right hip is probably 45* rotated from address at the top of the backswing. Since I've freed up my left foot and allowed it to roll and lift slightly on the backswing i've eliminated any tendency to hang back/reverse pivot. Also, more weight transfer is required to make Ballard swing work for me. Fat or blocked shots would result without full weight transfer back and through.

I still see all that movement as a sway or at least a big horizontal movement off the ball- it really moves the incline flat swing path horizontally when the left shoulder moves perfectly well around a stable spine. I understand Ballards argument as to why he says it isn't a sway- I tried to believe it myself but couldn't. I found that you can turn and rotate and the ball flies. Just be thought on it.

I agree that one swing for all is not realistic but I also believe that everyone must slightly modify the basic principles of any swing theory to accomodate personal physique, strength, and timing issues.

Texsport

That is what TGM is all about. I have choices not only in the way I want to build my stroke but I can build strokes for a short game, scoring irons or drivers, too.
Take for an example, this month in Golf Magazine, it spoke of a full shoulder turn with the hands high like VJ or Els. Right ! Not many people can do that (or should). The Golfing Machine (I can write that without a trademark- huh?) is perfect for all sizes, shapes and ages.

[birdie_man]

Take for an example, this month in Golf Magazine, it spoke of a full shoulder turn with the hands high like VJ or Els. Right ! Not many people can do that (or should).

This sounds interesting Mike...

Why not take a long swing with upright plane?....I have a few ideas that might fit but if you know fill me in.

I'm more concerned with the "(or should)" rather than the "can."

-Paul

[6bmike]

This sounds interesting Mike...

Why not take a long swing with upright plane?....I have a few ideas that might fit but if you know fill me in.

I'm more concerned with the "(or should)" rather than the "can."

-Paul

I'm sorry I forgot to write my full thought- not many golfers are "lean" enough to have a full shoulder turn and lift the hands high like Love or Els. Yet golf mags say to do that. Tell a barrel chested guy to do that and he would lift out of his address and/or reverse pivot to look like Els.

The should: If you are flexible, lean or young and the hands can reach for the sky without lifting out of address than thats great. But I still like as few shifts as possible and feel the hands should stop when the left arm ends. And for you skinny guys- thats way up there.

[Clay Huestis]

When I was young I got a good dose of Jimmy Ballard, and the results were not pretty. My father is a PGA professional who became a Ballard convert in the early 80s and eventually assisted Jimmy at a few of his schools. A lot of Ballard's ideas are easy to misinterpret or take to extremes. There is no doubt that many Ballard students, myself included, developed a sway. I also had a very slack left arm, due to his insistance that the left arm shouldn't be straight. For me, though, the biggest problem with Ballard's ideas is the lack of emphasis on the hands. Basically, shift your weight back, fire your right side, stay connected and your hands will do what they are supposed to. That may work with some talented players, but for me it was a recipe for disaster. In the past 10 years, I have drifted from book to book, reading and rereading various ideas from Leadbetter, Nick Price, Jim McClean (a Ballard disciple), Percey Boomer and Manuel de la Torre. SOME of them had SOME good info, but no one gave me a complete understanding of the swing, nothing "clicked" for me, and my overall idea of the swing was very piecemeal.

I think Ballard's swing CAN work for a highly talented player who already has "educated hands", but once I entered the world of TGM about 6 months ago, I can see why it didn't work for me. I had no idea what my hands should do in the swing. I had no stable base (due to a sway) and no constant radius (due to lazy left arm). My right side tries to dominate, so although I am generally a swinger, the right side tends to take over (which I think was the root of some periodic shank problems I had in the past). Nearly everything I am doing now is an "undoing" of what I was taught when I was 11. With TGM I finally have a comprehensive understanding of the swing and what I should be trying to achieve in various parts of the swing. More than anything, under my old understanding, I wasn't complying with ANY of the 3 imperatives, and now I know that however my swing evolves, it must incorporate them.

[lagster]

When I was young I got a good dose of Jimmy Ballard, and the results were not pretty. My father is a PGA professional who became a Ballard convert in the early 80s and eventually assisted Jimmy at a few of his schools. A lot of Ballard's ideas are easy to misinterpret or take to extremes. There is no doubt that many Ballard students, myself included, developed a sway. I also had a very slack left arm, due to his insistance that the left arm shouldn't be straight. For me, though, the biggest problem with Ballard's ideas is the lack of emphasis on the hands. Basically, shift your weight back, fire your right side, stay connected and your hands will do what they are supposed to. That may work with some talented players, but for me it was a recipe for disaster. In the past 10 years, I have drifted from book to book, reading and rereading various ideas from Leadbetter, Nick Price, Jim McClean (a Ballard disciple), Percey Boomer and Manuel de la Torre. SOME of them had SOME good info, but no one gave me a complete understanding of the swing, nothing "clicked" for me, and my overall idea of the swing was very piecemeal.

I think Ballard's swing CAN work for a highly talented player who already has "educated hands", but once I entered the world of TGM about 6 months ago, I can see why it didn't work for me. I had no idea what my hands should do in the swing. I had no stable base (due to a sway) and no constant radius (due to lazy left arm). My right side tries to dominate, so although I am generally a swinger, the right side tends to take over (which I think was the root of some periodic shank problems I had in the past). Nearly everything I am doing now is an "undoing" of what I was taught when I was 11. With TGM I finally have a comprehensive understanding of the swing and what I should be trying to achieve in various parts of the swing. More than anything, under my old understanding, I wasn't complying with ANY of the 3 imperatives, and now I know that however my swing evolves, it must incorporate them.

.................................................. ..............

Hang in there!!! I think many people can relate to what you are saying.

Once you educate the hands, and get the Hands Controlled Pivot idea going... you should start feeling, and playing better.

Some did(do) well with Jimmy... some did(do) not.