Myth or reality: Sets Vs Repitions....

[jim_0068]

I would like to hear your opinion about what you feel is the right number of sets and repitions for the "average" person looking to improve their conditioning for golf.

The main reason i ask is because i keep hearing how you don't want to get too bulky for golf because you can lose your flexibility which makes plenty of sense. However i don't know if i agree with the "more repition and less set" crowd for this idea. Also since we all know there is no muscle memory why do i hear "golf specific trainers" relate more repitions to stamina and this is what we do on the course?

In my opinion we are doing very short, controlled, balanced EXPLOSIVE movments. We go from rest (address), to semi quick movement (backswing) to accelerating a clubhead at speeds over 100mph on the downswing. Isn't this an explosive movement that should be trained accordingly?

When i made the biggest leaps/bounds in my own conditioning it was with power lifting which is heavy weight, low repitions, explosive movements. Roughly 4 or 5 sets of 5-6 repitions each. It relies on proper technique, balance, and obviously "power."

The thing that i loved about power lifting is that you get very strong without getting very "bulky." If trained correctly you can become very strong while looking very small because of power and efficiency. Think of someone like Charles Howell III benching 300lbs.

Plus if you train correctly and eat correctly you'll see very fast and steady improvements in the gym.


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So i am right, wrong, sorta both, lol?

thanks

[Vickie]

Well Jim, You present some very interesting points. I agree that you can be strong and train heavy and add power and precision to your golf stroke. I also agree that there is a strange misunderstanding around training for stamina/endurance and the concept of repetitive motion. And you're gonna hate this, there is no right number of reps, weight, training exercises, modalities, or advise. That is why I don't consider myself a fitness trainer but instead, a fitness tutor.

Let's see if I can give you the benefit of my experience with 'average people". First of all there, as you already know, is no such thing as an average person. Training must be geared to the individuals biological make-up, exercise background, and lifestyle. The measure of heavy is relative not only to the individual but also to the present life experience.

The most specific thing I can tell you is that there are ways of orchestrating the range of motion with the number of repetitions with the quantity of weight to create the best physique for the most specific objective. Typically less weight with higher reps will yield great endurance at the level of strength acquired by the weight chosen relative to the existing measure of strength. The best way to train a muscle is to figure out if it is, for your body composition, more white fiber (fast twitch) or red fiber ( slow twitch) and then train it for the purpose you have in mind. Very few sprinters actually run long distance and none do it competitively.

I am a natural and almost pure ectomorph (lean by design) and I have acquired a great deal of strength and therefore train very heavy with 12-15 -30 reps and I am still not bulky. However I have a very good friend who is mesomorph (naturally athletic looking) and she has to train lighter than I (even though she is technically stronger) or she will start growing and loose her range of motion.

Now there is another component; flexibility training. Even if you have a propensity to develop muscle and if you train to heavy too soon ( didn't address this here but it happens) you can still maintain your range of motion if you put an equal emphasis on the flexibility side of your strength training.

A muscle either contracts for power or lengthens for balance and the antagonistic action. So you must train each function of the muscle to create maximum power and maximum range of motion for your physiology.

It really is that simple. Some people, since there is no real definition for average people, are more flexible than others just like some are naturall more strong and can build easier than others. Just look for balance in your exercise, your cardio-pulmonary training and your nutrition.

Like Jim says, you can see fast and steady results if you just pay attention. If you seem to be loosing range of motion see if you are stretching for that action. If you are growing out of your best suit coat, maybe you should back off the back work. Pay attention and make appropriate adjustments. Don't train longer than an hour at a time. And make some time for fun out of the gym and yes even off the course.

Start slow if you're not training, keep increasing your resistence and pay attention. Consistency is the secret. Vik

[jim_0068]

Actually, that response was EXACTLY what i was looking for.

It helps me realize that i should go back to what worked for me. I had a feeling my intuition was correct.

I had my best gains when i:

ate correctly (thats #1 i think), lifted heavy with low reps for around 4-6 weeks then lifted a little lighter with slightly higher reps for about 2-3 weeks and then back to the heavier weights. I would also alternate cycles with either bar work or dumbells.

Thanks Vickie

[Vickie]

Yea Jim!!!

I couldn't be happier with your reply to my response. I really believe in intuitive training. I also agree with you that nutrition is always the first line of defense. When I start with a new client I take them off their supplements until they get their nutrition in order and then we look at what they really need to support their body. I often tell people that no matter how hard you work, nutrition is 80% of the formula. I argue a lot over this but I know it to be true.

My body type requires a lower threshhold for the heavy training so I train heavy, literally every other workout. I trained light chest on Tuesday and went heavy, back today, off tomorrow and will do legs heavy on Friday. I just know my body. Why? Because I have made it my business. Every Body should train differently. My couples are always amazed at the differences in our approach to their training (yes most couples are golfers). Some of my women train as heavy or heavier than their husbands . . . it really is individualized.

I quoted all of this because so many of our readers will have no background in thinking about their fitness this specifically. While I am so glad there are resources for nutrition and training I am so distressed that 'we all' pass off the knowledge to someone else called a professional. Now I love trainers and nutritionists, I DO make my living doing this same work, but at some point we must all learn to understand the make up of our own physiology and it's relationship to our life and our activities; yea! finally some reference to G.O.L.F.

Since I am still presenting myself on Lynn's site I will repeat that I am a fitness tutor, not a personal trainer. My job is to teach people how to be the administrator of their own health. It takes some time, we didn't grow up with this, those of us that are over 45.

Jim. Keep your focus, keep your balance and keep paying attention to your intuition. You are a trainer's dream. You will be successful and you will continue to enjoy great health and better and better golf with TGM. I am so glad you connected on the thread. I would love to talk further about your training as it refers to the brutal, little, yellow book.

Thanks,
Vik

[JohnThomas1]

I should have looked in here earlier. If you ever get the chance have a look at some of Poliquins stuff Jim. It's all about variety, but in the right doses. Also, if you stretch properly you won't lose flexibility regardless. There are Mr Olympia's that can do the splits among other things. One of the Poliquin programs i made immediate gains on involved varied reps. You pick a heavy exercise for the one muscle and do 4 sets of say 4-6. Then pick another heavyish exercise and do say 3 sets of 8-10. Then choose a lighter type finisher for 2 sets of 12-15. If one was to do the higher reps first you would not have enough left when going heavier. Choose the exercises well tho. The BIG thing too tho is to vary the cadences. I haven't got my book handy but will try my best

An example

Chest

Flat Bench press 4 X 4-6 with a 3 second negative, 2 second pause and a two second positive

Incline dumbell press 3 X 8-10 2 second negative, 1 second pause and a one second positive

Flat flyes 2 X 10-15 1 second negative, no pause and try to thrust on the positive.


I made great gains with this training. Proper supersetting also had a great effect.

[jim_0068]

I like doing supersets but only once in a while...from my experience in my own routines and helping others develop theirs, doing too many too often didn't yield any gains.

They actually plateau'd must faster probably because they weren't letting their muscles get enough time to recooperate.

[JohnThomas1]

Agree totally Jim. Supersets are high intensity and should be used accordingly. I used to use them in a 3 week cycle. I would only use one superset per muscle group then follow it with a couple of standard higher rep sets of an easier exercise. (EG flyes, pec dec, pulley rows) Supersetting can be really good to bust plateau's. When i started the gym common thinking was 3 sets of 10 reps for most things. This worked ok for my first 6 months or so before leveling off and then i went to 4 sets of 6-8 reps. This kicked me in again. I now find i get my best gains around the 6-8 rep mark but apparently it varies for different folks. What do you find your best range is? Of course we must vary it to keep the burns fresh but i find that range works well.


John

[Vickie]

Just wanted to say that JohnThomas1 is right about the poliquin material. It is all really good and reliable. He does have a tendency to talk to a well conditioned body so if you are just starting or recouperating just take it easy. Ballistic or explosive movement is a great tool as is the concept of the slow negative (that's the part of a repetition when you are lowering the weight). But . . . atleast a fundamental amount of conditioning is recommended so the joints can take the overload.

Everyworkout and every set should start with some steady and lower weighted work to condition the muscle and the connective tissue for the upcoming work. If I tell you I do three sets of chest incline presses you would actually see me do the movement four times because the first time would be with a very light weight very slowly and very controlled. It is a philosophy I have used throughout my years in the gym and teaching and injury is non-existent. In terms of plateaus I want to suggest that everyone hits them on occassion. Don't always assume this means you are doing something wrong. Sometimes a muscles strength limitatins are being governed by the body's ability to recognize a 'weak link' in the muscles and joints that support the work and the seeming plateau creates the time for catch up. This is a time to look at your workout and look at your form and see if some supporting, typically smaller muscles need some attention.

Supersets are great in many cases. Since you are moving thru two or three movements without rest you must remember that rest is then required at the end of each super set. So rest for 45-90 seconds and then start again. People tend to forget the reset in the superset. For my own training I do short periods of supersets about twice a year and this always means that my weights are lower and my reps are higher. I personally either combine two body parts or, more traditionally, I do one large muscle and one small muscle per workout. Typically chest and triceps, back and biceps, legs and shoulders and from there I just mix up the large and small muscle combinations. This allows me to have some shorter workouts because the chest just doesn't take as much time a s the many leg muscles.

This is only a taste of the many orchestrations that can be applied to training your body. As you will expect, if you read any of my work, I think it is important to determine what each individual needs and on any given day the work should be decided after you evaluate where you are in your training, how you feel and what you focus is for the day. Have a very specific master plan and then allow for the very wonderfully human capacity for reasoning and workout smart.

Love these posts. Vik

[JohnThomas1]

Great stuf Vik!!! As you say, many things work well. There are however a lot that don't and the biggest shame in working out is in not getting decent gains. I like your warm up set. I am possibly overzealous regarding warming up. Our instructor used to rib me all the time. He said by the time i get heavy i'm worn out, but hey i made good gains regardless and didn't have many drama's. Say i was doing a basic chest workout. If i started with flat benches i would do about 15 light ones. Then i would pyramid up in the 6-8 rep range (My common rep). I might end up doing six sets not counting the first but only three would be full working sets. On my next exercise (Inclines say) i would start just shy of the weight i aimed for for one set then hit it hard. I found pyramiding on the first exercise worked well for me and i didn't wear out as bad as the instructor implied. He holds Aussie records for heavyweight powerlifting so you know where he's at lol. His warm up idea was more along the lines of this. Let's say a good working weight for me was 3 sets of 6-8 benches at 90kg or so. He would have me do a very light set of 10 to get the blood flowing. Then say 6 reps of 50kg, then 4 of 70 then 2 of about 80. Not too much rest. Then whammo very heavy. I did it a few times but was a bit leery. Any comments on this?

Regards
John

[Vickie]

My reply to the trainer's concept of warm up is simply that your approach to any workout is more about the individual's conditioning and objectives than anything. If your primary focus in life is on power then you will be willing to pay a price higher than most of the people that I work with. I simply don't have time to be injured or sore and don't want my workouts to interfere with the other things I like in my life like golf and tennis.

Sounds to me like your approach is more sensible. The slow gradual increases in weight (popularly called a pyramid) allow you to condition the golgi tendon and it will be more forgiving throughout the workout. It is the golgi tendon that gets in the way of making break-thru gains in your training as it sends a big ole STOP message to your brain just at the time you are really creating the micro trauma that causes growth. Again better conditining and a strong mental state overcome this trecherous body function but sometimes the consequences are significant soreness. To the degree one is willing to risk injury and endure soreness most programs work.

Ultimately, I really don't believe in a single program. I really think the best, and only, way to really get the most from your exercise is to place a lot of mental focus on the whole process. It is not a popular concept because everybody thinks you should 'just do it'. I think that is the reason most people quickly abandon their training; they simply don't get what they want because they don't understand what "that" is or how their body can get it.

It's tricky on an open forum to talk about training in the 6-8 repetition range because my guess is that most of the readers will not want or need to train at this level for their objective. I deal with professionals and retirees and gym rats but most of my people keep the reps a little higher and the weights a little lower; again it's the soreness/injury prevention factor. I have a number of 40's and 50's and 60's that are very concerned with physique training and body image but they don't want to miss their time on the course and soreness and muscle fatigue would surely affect their game.

So . . . we do a lot more trickery with the reps and cadence and organization of the exercises to keep the body changing/adapting positively to the work. I actually learned this from Lee Haney (eight time Olympian) back in the early eighties. I had trained very heavy (up to a 200 lb squat at 5'4") and found that a great deal of my energy was being drained since I could accomplish my goals with less weight and therefore less wear and tear on my body.

There is a guy in Atlanta that has a studio and all you do if you work with him is about 4 reps per body part with massive weights. He get's results but only a small % of the people who start the program actually finish it.
But he gets results so . . . some of the people will do some of the work some of the time but all of the people will not do the same work any of the time and they shouldn't expect to.

It really is a 'what works for you' field, not like accounting where the numbers always fit together the same way in the same collum according to the same schedule (can you tell I have a finance background?). I will tell you JohnThomas1 that the chest combination you referenced worked (without even worrying about the cadence) mainly because the flat press is more full chest, less weight on the incline as it begins to focus on the connection at the clavical bone and then even less on the butterfly as it is really focused on the attachment of the chest to your arm and at the sternum so it's more vulnerable. So you're doing that right and you know that 'real' people need to warm up and real fun people want to be at their prime on the golf course. So there.

Thx for the post. Nice exchange! Vik