Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Southern New Jersey
Posts: 1,605
Originally Posted by EdZ
Why do you think that is so common? Lack of startup swivel?
No, I think most player feel comfortable setting the elbow into their side which to me is different then leading the elbow deep into the pivot with hands then clubhead lagging. I think Sweep release is more common. Not every shot is a delayed Trigger. This is how I see Pitch Elbow- deep, Maximum snap released.
It is not to say the elbow fixes itself to a spot in Punch- the body is turning and the hands are on path to deliver the clubhead.
I don't follow the start-up Swivel POV. What are your thoughts?
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HP, grant me the serenity to accept what I cannot change, the courage to change what I can, and the wisdom to know the difference. Progress and not perfection is the goal every day!
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Southern New Jersey
Posts: 1,605
Originally Posted by jiujitsugolf
With a hitting motion on a pitch shot, should the elbow go infront of the hip and would this apply to the full swing with a wedge?
There are three elbow locations, at the side (punch) deep in front (pitch) and behind the shaft (push). A hitter would use punch or push for all types of shots. A hitters motion is a driving right arm to straight through the ball so either elbow position works.
Pitch elbow is a maximum participation late release for swingers.
Impact Fix, Angle Hinge, RFT, Full Pivot down with bicep tight making the Pivot carry the hands as deep as possible! (Paul Bertholy Master Drill in my head).
The problem is that I also nuke my ironsdoing this and my distance control is shot!
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HP, grant me the serenity to accept what I cannot change, the courage to change what I can, and the wisdom to know the difference. Progress and not perfection is the goal every day!
My best rounds have come from swinging an Angle Hinge to the back of the ball, 6 o'clock with my right elbow dropping on the ball on dry ground with lots of roll. If doing that, I have to keep my left wrist from rotating!
For all course distance, I need to develop my pivot and hold that Angle Hinge in a predictable way that gives me some regular distance measurements, imho.
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HP, grant me the serenity to accept what I cannot change, the courage to change what I can, and the wisdom to know the difference. Progress and not perfection is the goal every day!
Last edited by innercityteacher : 08-07-2012 at 10:01 PM.
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 60
The video I found helpful for figuring out what to do with the elbow appears as the 2nd video series, "The Preshot Routine". (the 2nd video of the series featuring Ted Fort). About 1/3 through this video, Ted demonstrates his piston-like preswing "waggle". As he thrusts his forearm forward, the elbow extends toward the middle of his stomach. Independently positioning my elbow farther forward is no longer required because the elbow ends up in the right position. (Maybe that is part of the magic of the right forearm?)
One might think that the time investment to hit 6,000 chips would not be fully rewarded by the modest effect on ones handicap of more accurate chipping. But the employment of my new forearm thrust in my full motion swings is the real reward. I can't believe how once I figured out the correct forearm thrust move for my chips, almost instantly my full motion hitting was dramatically improved. I am licking my chops, waiting for this golf season to begin because the more accurate and longer hitting I am doing on the range, must eventually translate to significantly lower scores.
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HP, grant me the serenity to accept what I cannot change, the courage to change what I can, and the wisdom to know the difference. Progress and not perfection is the goal every day!
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Qingdao, China
Posts: 1,639
learn to clap on an incllined plane
To learn a solid takeaway, get into an address position without a club. Level right wrist. Right forearm flying wedge in place.
clap your hands, leaving the left hand and arm at impact. Let your right hip move 'back' (clear it)
As you make that clapping motion bigger, allow the right hand to turn so that at the 'top', you are in a karate chop 'on plane' position with the pinky side of the right hand.
practice returning both to a 'clap', as well as a 'karate chop' back to the left hand. The 'karate chop' will show you how the right shoulder moves down plane.
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HP, grant me the serenity to accept what I cannot change, the courage to change what I can, and the wisdom to know the difference. Progress and not perfection is the goal every day!
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Atlanta, Georgia
Posts: 10,431
One Man's Journey
Originally Posted by fladan
I read this thread with great interest as I've struggled getting the club to "lay on the line" for years. Lynn and I have worked quite a bit on this, and during our school at Pine Tree last week, another contributor to being "under plane" in startup/backstroke came into view.
The golfer can have EA, minimal pivot (acquired motion) and still have trouble maintaining the clubshaft's alignment to the plane line; wrist conditions (Mechanical Checklist, Section 4/5, #16) also play a role. Remember the left wrist cock is a vertical motion. Go to impact fix - then cock the left wrist vertically. This gives you the wrist alignments at top (and at finish)
I found my left wrist arched as I moved from startup into backstroke. This caused the need for a compensating move at top. Life got much simpler lately when I corrected this error.
Moral to the story: Use 12-3 Mechanical checklist. The answers are there!
Great post, Dan. Just like your swing!
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HP, grant me the serenity to accept what I cannot change, the courage to change what I can, and the wisdom to know the difference. Progress and not perfection is the goal every day!
Last edited by innercityteacher : 08-07-2012 at 11:06 PM.
Vertically cocking the left wrist to un-cock it and beating my club pro by 3 strokes is fun and easy to do!
Quiet head, quiet knees, quiet feet, Angle Hinge-Impact Fix, You have to fully cock the vertical left wrist to fully un-cock it! I threw the club at the ball! I did it 46 times and then putted 30 times!
8 GIR on the front or within a foot on the fringe and 7 on the back 9, only missing 4 fairways.
What I did well- Quiet Head, knees and feet, Impact Fix, Angle hinge level left wrist, EA below plane, fully extended right arm feeling, fully cock the left wrist and drive PP # 3 to 6 o'clock on the ball-dead aft. Driver 2 inches inside my left heel for a soft fade, 4 inches back for a big draw!
Putted with the Runyon technique Lynn showed me and also putted my chips when close to the fringe-both elbows at my sides so my misses were no more than a ball away within 20 feet-made 2/6 birdies from beyond 10 feet. Played most of my second shots to the middle of the green.
What I did poorly- My PW has become my 120 yard stick and my 9 iron was going 140 yards on the fly today. So I over-clubbed a lot of greens taking myself out of real birdie chances! Made that mistake on 6 holes today!
This was really satisfying today, as I beat our club pro by 3 shots "officially."
Last season, I played in our inter-club Gap matches winning all my matches. I also lost a tournament by a playoff hole against a +2 hcp from another club at a regional GAP match. Anyway, I shot a 77 this year the weak before team selection and still did not get selected!
And what really frosts me, was that it was like pulling Godzilla's tale to get a compliment from him! I don't understand how a club pro could be so dense and lack generosity
Next time, I'll beat him by 10 shots!
ICT
__________________
HP, grant me the serenity to accept what I cannot change, the courage to change what I can, and the wisdom to know the difference. Progress and not perfection is the goal every day!
Last edited by innercityteacher : 08-08-2012 at 10:23 PM.
Vertically cocking the left wrist to un-cock it and beating my club pro by 3 strokes is fun and easy to do!
Quiet head, quiet knees, quiet feet, Angle Hinge-Impact Fix, You have to fully cock the vertical left wrist to fully un-cock it! I threw the club at the ball! I did it 46 times and then putted 30 times!
8 GIR on the front or within a foot on the fringe and 7 on the back 9, only missing 4 fairways.
What I did well- Quiet Head, knees and feet, Impact Fix, Angle hinge level left wrist, EA below plane, fully extended right arm feeling, fully cock the left wrist and drive PP # 3 to 6 o'clock on the ball-dead aft. Driver 2 inches inside my left heel for a soft fade, 4 inches back for a big draw!
Putted with the Runyon technique Lynn showed me and also putted my chips when close to the fringe-both elbows at my sides so my misses were no more than a ball away within 20 feet-made 2/6 birdies from beyond 10 feet. Played most of my second shots to the middle of the green.
What I did poorly- My PW has become my 120 yard stick and my 9 iron was going 140 yards on the fly today. So I over-clubbed a lot of greens taking myself out of real birdie chances! Made that mistake on 6 holes today!
This was really satisfying today, as I beat our club pro by 3 shots "officially."
Last season, I played in our inter-club Gap matches winning all my matches. I also lost a tournament by a playoff hole against a +2 hcp from another club at a regional GAP match. Anyway, I shot a 77 this year the weak before team selection and still did not get selected!
And what really frosts me, was that it was like pulling Godzilla's tale to get a compliment from him! I don't understand how a club pro could be so dense and lack generosity
Next time, I'll beat him by 10 shots!
ICT
Quote:
Yoda
Administrator
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Atlanta, Georgia
Posts: 10,431
One Less Bell To Answer
Originally Posted by bts
Originally Posted by Martee
At what point do you make a decision as to what golf philosphy, instruction, method, style you are going to adopt as your mainstay?
............................
Whatever, not until I can hit one type of (whatever) shot ten in a row.
[Bold by Yoda.]
bts,
1. Start with a dead-straight, 12-inch Putt.
2. Make a complete Three-Station Motion (Address, Top and Finish).
3. Stay On Plane during that Basic Motion (Up, Back and In and Down, Out and Forward) by Tracing (Clubshaft Control) the Plane Line / Target Line with your Right Forearm and Forefinger (which senses the inertia of the Lagging Sweetspot and thus also serves as Clubhead Control).
4. Keep your Left Wrist Flat (Clubface Control) as you proceed through Impact until Both Arms are straight. In other words, Follow-Through.
5. Pick the Ball out of the Hole and repeat nine more times.
At this point, your search has ended. Ten times in a row you have used your Flat Left Wrist, Clubhead Lag Pressure Point and Straight Plane Line to demonstrate total control of the Clubface, Head and Shaft from Address to The Top to The Finish. You may now embrace The Golfing Machine for what it is:
A Complete System for a Lifetime of Better Golf.
From Impact Fix, I cock my flat left wrist up to my shoulder, the same distance and appearance as if I was RFT'ing. I drive my # 3 PP to a selected spot on the ball depending on shot shape desired to both arms straight and a full finish in balance.
My mates ask me if I get tired of being in the middle! "NOPE-middle of the hole!" ICT
__________________
HP, grant me the serenity to accept what I cannot change, the courage to change what I can, and the wisdom to know the difference. Progress and not perfection is the goal every day!
Ok, so I'm still learning and shooting in the high 70's lol!
Originally Posted by innercityteacher
From Impact Fix, I cock my flat left wrist up to my shoulder, the same distance and appearance as if I was RFT'ing. I drive my # 3 PP to a selected spot on the ball depending on shot shape desired to both arms straight and a full finish in balance.
My mates ask me if I get tired of being in the middle! "NOPE-middle of the hole!" ICT
YODA KNOWS !
[quote][color="Navy"][b]
Yoda
Administrator
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Atlanta, Georgia
Posts: 10,431
Fooling Mother Nature
Originally Posted by YodasLuke
Horizontal hinging has such a different rhythm, I'd never be able to apply it in a hit. I was originally taught to be the opposite of that before I met Yoda. I was taught to be a swinger with angled hinging. It had terrible consequences.
[Bold by Yoda.] Horizontal Hinging -- the Vertical-to-the-Ground Motion of the Flat Left Wrist and its consequent Closing Only Motion of the Clubface -- is the natural consequence of Centrifugal Force. Swingers should remember this and not try to 'fight City Hall' unless absolutely necessary.
It is not just a matter of "Oh, I did Horizontal Hinging on that one, now I'll do Angled Hinging on this one." According to taped lecture of the late Homer Kelley, a golf club moving at 100 MPH generates 107 pounds of Centrifugal Pull during the Release Interval. And that Pull is doing everything it possibly can to align the Clubface -- indeed, the entire Primary Lever Assembly (Left Arm and Club) -- for Horizontal Hinging. Attempting to override Centrifugal Force and make the Club do one thing when it wants to do another, is the recipe for inconsistency -- if not disaster -- on the links.
The same is true of the simultaneous Close-and-Layback of Angled Hinging. This Vertical-to-the-Plane Motion of the Flat Left Wrist and Clubface is the natural consequence of the Drive-out of Muscular Thrust. Attempting to make the Clubface Close Only (Horizontal Hinging) when the Driving Thrust is making it Lay Back is also to thumb one's nose at the Laws of Force and Motion. You can get away with such arrogance some of the time, but sooner or later you will learn the hard way...
It's not nice to fool Mother Nature!
__________________
Yoda
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HP, grant me the serenity to accept what I cannot change, the courage to change what I can, and the wisdom to know the difference. Progress and not perfection is the goal every day!
Last edited by innercityteacher : 08-09-2012 at 11:50 PM.
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Atlanta, Georgia
Posts: 10,431
Fooling Mother Nature
Originally Posted by YodasLuke
Horizontal hinging has such a different rhythm, I'd never be able to apply it in a hit. I was originally taught to be the opposite of that before I met Yoda. I was taught to be a swinger with angled hinging. It had terrible consequences.
[Bold by Yoda.] Horizontal Hinging -- the Vertical-to-the-Ground Motion of the Flat Left Wrist and its consequent Closing Only Motion of the Clubface -- is the natural consequence of Centrifugal Force. Swingers should remember this and not try to 'fight City Hall' unless absolutely necessary.
It is not just a matter of "Oh, I did Horizontal Hinging on that one, now I'll do Angled Hinging on this one." According to taped lecture of the late Homer Kelley, a golf club moving at 100 MPH generates 107 pounds of Centrifugal Pull during the Release Interval. And that Pull is doing everything it possibly can to align the Clubface -- indeed, the entire Primary Lever Assembly (Left Arm and Club) -- for Horizontal Hinging. Attempting to override Centrifugal Force and make the Club do one thing when it wants to do another, is the recipe for inconsistency -- if not disaster -- on the links.
The same is true of the simultaneous Close-and-Layback of Angled Hinging. This Vertical-to-the-Plane Motion of the Flat Left Wrist and Clubface is the natural consequence of the Drive-out of Muscular Thrust. Attempting to make the Clubface Close Only (Horizontal Hinging) when the Driving Thrust is making it Lay Back is also to thumb one's nose at the Laws of Force and Motion. You can get away with such arrogance some of the time, but sooner or later you will learn the hard way...
It's not nice to fool Mother Nature!
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Yoda
Quote:
YodasLuke
Lynn Blake Certified Master Instructor
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Marietta, GA
Posts: 1,314
Originally Posted by MizunoJoe
"A draw is simple enough if the clubface is closed in the grip, and the machine is adjusted to the right."
You can't draw the ball with a closed clubface, which can only contact the outside of the ball. You are describing a pull hook with respect to the adjusted machine. The "prior" aspect of this procedure does not insure it's "precision". I can Horizontally Hinge more precisely than "guesstimate" how much to close both the clubface and stance. Sure you can...(infinite doubt inserted here)
If you had read the previous post, you would have seen that the clubface was square to the target, not closed to it. The clubface is closed to the grip but not to the target. Additionally, the club would have to be swung off plane to hit the outside quadrant of the ball with the machine aligned to the right. With this body line, the inside quadrant is the only part of the ball that could possibly be struck, for those of us that don't like plane shifts.
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Yoda knows...and he taught me!
For those less fortunate, Swinging is an option.
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HP, grant me the serenity to accept what I cannot change, the courage to change what I can, and the wisdom to know the difference. Progress and not perfection is the goal every day!
I threw the club at the ball! I did it 46 times and then putted 30 times! 
So I over-clubbed a lot of greens taking myself out of real birdie chances! Made that mistake on 6 holes today! 
Linear Mode
