[quote=O.B.Left;90562]Please do . Im all for learning something new. Wouldn't be here otherwise.
In general I think we're saying much the same thing but coming at it from different angles so to speak. The #3pp , the hands do travel up the plane . In feel and in real and most importantly in terms of our intentions. That is our intention of we RFT'ers. No exaggerated awareness of shoulder turning nor any intellectual or philosophical need to try to unite the motion of the Hands and the Pivot along one course or path. They are not travelling the same path to top. They go their own ways but meet up .... on the Turned Shoulder Plane (ideally to my mind for simplicity in Startdown but thats another story) at Top.
Ive bolded some of your words for clarity. Id say its much more than "seemingly" the pivot does provide In given a Pivot stroke.
Three Dimensional Takeaway (BACKWARDS , IN AND UP) like Three Dimensional Impact (FORWARD , DOWN and OUT) is necessitated given any inclination to the Inclined Plane . Backwards everybody sees, gets . Up is best done with the Right Forearm (Elbow bending) Magic in my opinion. No heavy lifting with the shoulders or left arm which is poorly positioned on the other side of the body to do any lifting. Try swinging slowly with just the left arm on the club to see this. The Pivot , golfs basic rotational force, can provide much if not all of the In for strokes in which there is a pivot. For strokes in which the Shoulder Turn is truly zeroed the Right Forearm must provide the Up and In as you say .
Wouldn't pure right arm fanning (no bending) mean you hand no Up? Good for Single Horizontal only. What provides the Up to insure on plane motion as in Dual Horizontal the Machine.
Ya I was trying to think of another way of putting that.. an oath like right arm motion? Thats why added "in the old western movies". No offence to native americans intended.
Totally agree on it aint just one right arm motion. The how thing holds for full pivot strokes only. The right arm motion when seen in isolation (with pivot removed) changes as the pivots contribution increases or decreases. People may not see this at first and then when they do it will probably seem needlessly complex but .... we do it all day long in our daily motions. The concern for this seemingly complex mixture of unique Pivot and Arm motions will disappear when one sees the common goal that makes this ever changing business automatic ... The intention to send the hand to its target. In golf its Up the inclined plane to its position at Top. Assuming you choose to Trace you could say it includes tracing the plane line too in startup.
A lagging takeaway is optional but I wouldn't discount its effectiveness. Bobby Jones, Nelson , Hogan and surprisingly Nicklaus all employed it to varying visual apparent degrees.
The True Swinger , one for whom CF alone squares the Clubface given his relaxed absolutely tension free Wrists would to my mind employ a Lagging Takeaway. Hmm wonder if Carry Back and True Swinging are mutually exclusive. I think so. Cant carry back if you the shaft is a string.
[QUTOE]
forget about the divergent vectors, lift the club ON PLANE, instead of trying to mix and match vectors varying amounts to accommodate the plane.
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Some lucky folks they don't need to think about the Divergent Vectors and Id say in the end after training with them in ideally they disappear in terms of our attention. Its sort of a" hey look at this and then forget it deal". But for the golfer who's exaggerated Shoulder Turn consciousness takes him forever under plane on the way back or the for the guy who over swivels going back , or the guy who has trouble getting his club on plane at Top , or for the guy who is just trying to figure out what the right arm actually has to do for the shot at hand ... the Divergent Vectors are the course of study.
Do mean forget about Back as a product of Arm Motion? That Id agree with to the extent that most guys over do it . Theres got to be some Back in their, coming from something somewhere. Do mean the Pivot provides the Back?
I agree with everything you say after "THINK EXTENSOR, THINK #3.... " And believe that for most golfers they should think about all you have said to forget ... You're just lucky to have not suffered like most when learning this game. If you talked to most pros about Divergent Vectors they'd look at you with a "man your over thinking this thing" look. But that doesn't mean its not the truth on the matter . So Id say look at if you need to and most of us do need to .......then when you mastered you Backswing let it sink into the background by forgetting about it.
Im way older than you Whip. I was a 3 cap when I was 16 thats a long time ago now. I'm trying to get it back to the plus side of things again this year and asked Lynn a few weeks ago what I should work on to get there.. His reply " MacDonald drills and the computer". He knows my swing , we've done a lot of work on plane of the left wrist cock, Wrist conditions, independent Arm and Pivot motion (human movement 101) and freeing up my swingers flail (no hold off unless I want it) . I benefitted from thinking about this stuff profoundly. Im approaching the forget it stage and am thrilled about it.
Although the right arm motion of MacDonald drill number 5 ( Mambo #5 ) is not on plane if you added drill 11's pivot it would be. That is the point ... independent arm and pivot motion. They are very different motions but they combine to produce the on plane right hand travel .. that ideally is your intention your focus. You don't focus on the different motions or try to pickup the club straight over your right shoulder like in the Elk drill . When you reach for the glass on the right shoulder high shelf your intention is to send the hand to the glass! You don't think about sending it a few feet short of the glass! This is maybe something Elk knows . But the drill still stands the arm does not contribute 100% of the hands path for pivot strokes.
Uh I don't want to speak ill of any GSED's but the intention to Wrist Throw down the Incline Plane is the correct intention in Release but some have said to "throw it straight down into the ground". That aint quite right. Its the downswings version of the above discussion. Intentions and arm motions when seen in isolation are not to be confused.
Im writing quickly hope I made some sense and love your swing in that video. Like i said its the sort of thing where we're sort of ending up in the same place but describing our different takes on the way to get there maybe.
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good points OB, great post. In regards to "what gets the club up?" I mentioned not only fanning but LIFTING and fanning both. In regards to the divergent vectors, I think is more aptly focused for the downswing, in 2-N-1(i think it was? don't have my book with me) but that passage was referring to swinging away from the hinge(the out releasing 4) and uncocking downward in the downswing, divergent vectors providing the down and out along with the axis tilt. Also wasn't trying to point out anything offensive that you had posted i just realized how it sounded after i typed it, and put the PC comment in there. In regards to the lagging clubhead takeaway i think essentially is just starting from adjusted address and swinging away, but In my initial foray into tgm i know that i attempted a lct and was shut and along the ground, and I believe is somewhat of a hazardous idea for most who ought to be getting the club UP and not low and back. I totally agree with homer's idea of reaching for the cup and your precise evaluation that it should seek the plane. the back comes from maintaining the natural length of the left arm (extensor action) as the club moves up and in along with the pivot(or not). forgive my poor posting skills, and again great post.
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