Heavy hit

[Jeff]

HK wrote-: "Over-Acceleration is the menace that stalks all Lag and Drag. Here it allows the Hands to reach maximum speed before reaching Impact and so dissipates the Lag. So the length of the Stroke and the amount of Thrust should be adjusted and balanced to produce a "High Thrust-Low Speed" Impact - "heavy" rather than "quick". "

I don't really understand the concept of a "heavy hit" in a swinger's action.

Here is a link to a golfer performing a left arm swing.

This is presumably drag loading at its purest. Does he have a "heavy hit"? What would a swinger need to do in order to have a "heavy hit" if PA#2 releases passively/automatically according to the principle of the endless belt?

Jeff.

[Mike O]

HK wrote-: "Over-Acceleration is the menace that stalks all Lag and Drag. Here it allows the Hands to reach maximum speed before reaching Impact and so dissipates the Lag. So the length of the Stroke and the amount of Thrust should be adjusted and balanced to produce a "High Thrust-Low Speed" Impact - "heavy" rather than "quick". "

I don't really understand the concept of a "heavy hit" in a swinger's action.

Here is a link to a golfer performing a left arm swing.

This is presumably drag loading at its purest. Does he have a "heavy hit"? What would a swinger need to do in order to have a "heavy hit" if PA#2 releases passively/automatically according to the principle of the endless belt?

Jeff.

Jeff,
In studying the Golfing Machine - it's important that you are precise in your terms- otherwise you can get off course quickly. You've quoted Homer Kelley and then thrown in your own words "heavy hit". It would be better for you and all - that you stay with his terminology and then ask the questions in regards to his writings. I don't mean that as an attack on you- rather a piece of advice that I think may help you- or anyone reading the post/thread. It's just that "heavy hit" brings in a whole additional slant- it really is just a reflection of your question/ your mind's issue - in that - How can the swinger have a heavy feeling if they are not actively driving the shaft? Or How can the swinger have a heavy feeling compared to the hitter? (doesn't)

Therefore, there is no "precise measurement" such as 4 lbs- that equals a heavy "hit". It's relative - heavy and slower is better than quick and fast in order to regain lag IF you are experience "throwaway" via over-acceleration creating a condition of dissipating lag before impact.

If having lag is slow and heavy and losing lag is quick and fast - then whether swinging or hitting- if one is feeling quick, fast and having over-acceleration then one solution is to sense slow and heavy. Certainly, the overall sensation between swinging and hitting will not be the same - the one having an active "direct" drive and the other having an "indirect" passive "drive"- one pushing - one pulling.

And so it goes.... Knowledge is ALWAYS relative, contextual. It isn't created separately, independently in a vacuum.

Finally, somewhat outside of this post- but in the same vain - you see many attacking Homer Kelley's idea of "Hitting", that "Pure hitting" is only 54% powerful, etc. etc. Trying to destroy the concept by measuring every single force, fiber, etc. and determining that only X% is pushing and "therefore there is not such thing as "Pure Hitting"- that Homer Kelley had it wrong." The same people would invalidate every concept in existence - For Example, there is no such thing as a "Pure Table" - because we've measured all of them and they are all different sizes, made from different materials, hold different books and magazines, are in different places, different colors, ............ If that's how you see the world or you'd like to join them - then read up on your leader - Immanual Kant - where you can find all you want to know about "Pure Knowledge"- take some LSD while you're at it - so you can get that "Pure Knowledge" - you wouldn't want your senses to get in the way. Meanwhile, the guy on the street can tell you if he's pushing the car or pulling the car- while the professor might ask you "How do you know that's a car?" "For that matter, how do you even know that you exist?" "Maybe it's just a dream?"

Hey, BamBam! What's your mailing address- I've got a package to send you - call it a power package!

[Jeff]

Mike - you make a relevant point about "feeling" slow and deliberate ia an important "feeling" in a swinger who suffers from over-acceleration and clubhead throwaway.

However, I am interested in a specific answer to my question's primary implications. One needs lag at impact to hit the ball solidly. The Iron Byron machine is adjusted (in terms of central arm speed and club release point) so that the clubhead is just behind the peripheral hinge joint at impact (like the one arm golfer). That ensures that the clubshaft has forward shaft lean at impact. For a given clubhead speed at impact and given degree of forward shaft lean at impact, does the quality of lag affect ball flight distance? In other words, does a swinger have the ability to modulate the quality of lag at impact and produce a "heavy hit" (? increased smash factor) that can increase the amount of energy imparted to the ball, and therefore ball flight distance, for a given clubhead speed and given amounf of forward shaft lean at impact?

Jeff.

[golfbulldog]

Jeff, I agree with Mike, "heavy hit" is a phrase not in the book and is laced with the blood of previous arguments... but the correct impact feel is as Homer described...slow and heavy and dragging moppish...if that feels like "heavy hit" ...then that is your feel... Homer said "'heavy' feel" (2-E)

But I think that you want some facts about the "quantity of impact"... Homer suggested that the physics of impact could be maximised if the clubhead did not slow down much through impact interval

IMO, the real questions you seek answers for are:

How does Homer explain the benefits of resisting impact deceleration?
The bit of the book you are interested is in 2-E . I do not know if the science is correct but the idea that if you can minimise the deceleration of the clubhead during impact "zero deceleration is what would give maximum ball speed..."

Can a golfer resist impact deceleration? Homer suggested prestressed clubshaft... yet most high speed swing visions show the shaft releasing before impact...

as I am sure you have read - "Search for the Perfect Swing" said the clubhead acted like a free orbiting object...so anything you feel in the shaft at impact is not actually resisting impact deceleration...it is as though there is no shaft...maybe...

That is where a real and unbiased physics person is required....

[Augusta Golf]

HK wrote-: "Over-Acceleration is the menace that stalks all Lag and Drag. Here it allows the Hands to reach maximum speed before reaching Impact and so dissipates the Lag. So the length of the Stroke and the amount of Thrust should be adjusted and balanced to produce a "High Thrust-Low Speed" Impact - "heavy" rather than "quick". "

I don't really understand the concept of a "heavy hit" in a swinger's action.

Here is a link to a golfer performing a left arm swing.

This is presumably drag loading at its purest. Does he have a "heavy hit"? What would a swinger need to do in order to have a "heavy hit" if PA#2 releases passively/automatically according to the principle of the endless belt?

Jeff.

He was discussing the "feel" of moving a club head that "feels" heavy. Flippy, handsy, over-acceleration through impact makes the club feel light but maintaining the lag through the strike causes the club to feel heavier.

[KevCarter]

I find this thread very interesting. As a newbie, I have been thinking of what the guys on TV call a "heavy hit" as having a large amount of pressure on the shaft at impact/separation. My thought was a swinger would be feeling this pressure primarily in PP#4.

Before starting on my learning of TGM, I felt ZERO pressure at impact, and my golf swing had never been worse. Perhaps I am thinking of too many ideas in terms of my newly found "secret", lag pressure?

Kevin

[golfbulldog]

Kevin, I think that a swinger will have lost all pp4 sensation at impact...but they will have sustained pp3 lag sensation to and beyond impact.

I think the bit that Jeff is getting at is if you have a clubhead with right forearm on plane and lag pressure pp3 sustained....do you get more ball speed for a given clubhead speed (ie. higher smash factor).

HK seemed to have thought so - (from my understanding of TGM) - the pre-stressed shaft, lots of anatomical support to the shaft at impact to keep it driving....resisting impact deceleration. Analogy like would you prefer to be hit by a free flying fist at 30 mph...or a fist at 30 mph attached to a heavyweight? Some say the ball only knows energy (1/2 x mass x velocity squared)...so what about the size of the guy... fist -head collision is different to clubface - ball...

The science guys would say that any force you exert on the shaft at impact does not get transmitted to the clubhead/ball...the clubhead is just orbiting and colliding on its own...but it orbits in a better manner if you do as HK said....but maybe not resists impact deceleration for the reason he said it.

I do not know enough about the science to work out what is correct... but lag is a good thing...but maybe for reasons other than HK suggested.

[KevCarter]

Kevin, I think that a swinger will have lost all pp4 sensation at impact...but they will have sustained pp3 lag sensation to and beyond impact.

I think the bit that Jeff is getting at is if you have a clubhead with right forearm on plane and lag pressure pp3 sustained....do you get more ball speed for a given clubhead speed (ie. higher smash factor).

HK seemed to have thought so - (from my understanding of TGM) - the pre-stressed shaft, lots of anatomical support to the shaft at impact to keep it driving....resisting impact deceleration. Analogy like would you prefer to be hit by a free flying fist at 30 mph...or a fist at 30 mph attached to a heavyweight? Some say the ball only knows energy (1/2 x mass x velocity squared)...so what about the size of the guy... fist -head collision is different to clubface - ball...

The science guys would say that any force you exert on the shaft at impact does not get transmitted to the clubhead/ball...the clubhead is just orbiting and colliding on its own...but it orbits in a better manner if you do as HK said....but maybe not resists impact deceleration for the reason he said it.

I do not know enough about the science to work out what is correct... but lag is a good thing...but maybe for reasons other than HK suggested.

Thanks GolfBullDog, wonderful explanation! Now as I remember in my Alignment Golf DVDs, the left arm is starting on it's "blast off" on the downswing. Is that why we lose our feeling of pressure there? In S&T, they also explain the use of Accumulator #4 as a steady acceleration motion beginning at the top of the downstroke. Same principle?

I appreciate your time!

Kevin

[okie]

The correct Clubhead Lag Pressure Feel is a deadweight -- a status quo -- a deliberate, unvarying 'steady as she goes'. An unrevoked, unreversed, stable, permanent inertia. Exactly like dragging a wet mop through Impact."

Well, all rightee then!

First, I would look up each of the terms in the dictionary. Dwell on the intellectual concept of the totally inert Lag Pressure. Then, in drill, repeat (and sense) each word (or group of words) as you s-l-o-w-l-y drag a real wet mop -- not a dry mop and not a broom! -- through the Impact. That would be eleven 'drag-throughs'. Make sure you keep your Left Wrist Flat and your Right Wrist Bent throughout the exercise. Then one or two more 'drag-throughs' repeating (and sensing) the entire description. Do that every day for three weeks and, I promise you, your Motion through Impact will improve -- probably dramatically.

How many of you have actually done this? I had read about it...cited it...then one day I did it! I didn't actually drag a wet mop, but I did take several strands (5 X 3 ft.) of chain and attach them together then placed them over the end of the grip down to the head of an old club. You talk about heavy this or heavy that but only when you feel it does it make much sense...for me that is. Hitting a golf ball right after dragging the dry chains was almost surreal! You don't get it until you feel it.

[Jeff]

Golfbulldog - you are correctly identifying my question.

You wrote-: "the idea that if you can minimise the deceleration of the clubhead during impact "zero deceleration is what would give maximum ball speed...".

Is that possible? Is it possible to ensure that the clubhead does not decelerate during impact by maintaining a lot of clubhead lag pressure (presumably by increasing right triceps muscle push-tone force during impact)? When PA#2 releases, there is presumably a sense of decreased lag pressure at PP#3. I presume that a good golfer instinctively increases right triceps isometric muscle tone to prevent any decrease in the "feel" of lag pressure at PP#3 (during the PA#2 release process) from happening. Is that true considering how fast PA#2 releases? Is that controllable/trainable?

Jeff.