Stationary Head - To be or not to be

7th Edition Changes

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  #11  
Old 10-30-2006, 01:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Amen Corner
Compda,

Sorry for the poor clarification, I will blame it on that english is my third language.

The point I want to make is that on page 29 under 2-H, regarding the Hinge Pin through the stationary head down to a point right between the feet, Mr Kelley suddenly In My Translation, makes the stationary head mandatory. Which could end the debate that our humble host has with the host of another TGM-site!

Or is my translation faulty?
I don't have the time to post to this right now- but I would say that you haven't translated it correctly. Hopefully I can get back to this later tonight but in the meantime- Here are three important clues 1) You need to take into account the entire context of the paragraph- you can't pull out a line of this paragraph by itself- that would be a complete misquote, and 2) If you use all of the clues possible that Mr. Kelley provided then it is crucially important that you look at his use of fonts and capitalization and 3) Understand that he understood at that time the "two" theories of head still and rotating around the spine- I might be going out on a limb but I would suggest that you read the paragraph as if he is addressing those two different camps- and clarifying his position on that point.
Maybe someone can put the entire paragraph up in it's entirety and EXACTLY as he typed it- as a starting reference point.
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Old 10-30-2006, 02:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Mike O
I don't have the time to post to this right now- but I would say that you haven't translated it correctly. Hopefully I can get back to this later tonight but in the meantime- Here are three important clues 1) You need to take into account the entire context of the paragraph- you can't pull out a line of this paragraph by itself- that would be a complete misquote, and 2) If you use all of the clues possible that Mr. Kelley provided then it is crucially important that you look at his use of fonts and capitalization and 3) Understand that he understood at that time the "two" theories of head still and rotating around the spine- I might be going out on a limb but I would suggest that you read the paragraph as if he is addressing those two different camps- and clarifying his position on that point.
Maybe someone can put the entire paragraph up in it's entirety and EXACTLY as he typed it- as a starting reference point.
I'll type it up tonight . . . Mikey . . . wonder if the 8th edition will have anything on Rolling Heads or Defrosting Heads?
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Old 10-30-2006, 03:11 PM
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Thanks Bucket!

I'll take some time to post then- Never will be an 8th edition but just dreaming for a minute- you know he never had hitting and swinging broken out in the 1st edition. Then later he started to identify Hitting versus Swinging. Then towards the end of his life he theorized that he might need to have a book on Hitting and a separate book on Swinging- now that'd be a nice selling point for an 8th edition. A Hitting Book and a Swinging Book. Oh Ya- and probably doubling your gross revenue- not a bad marketing idea either- (DG- That's a subtle hint for you to jump in here and input some ideas (i.e. Thread Jack) so that we can decapitate the Bucket Man!)

Waking up now- back to the regular scheduled program.

Last edited by Mike O : 10-30-2006 at 03:14 PM.
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Old 10-30-2006, 03:19 PM
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Originally Posted by 12 piece bucket
I'll type it up tonight . . . Mikey . . . wonder if the 8th edition will have anything on Rolling Heads or Defrosting Heads?
Are you sarcastic, bucketman?
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Old 10-30-2006, 03:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Amen Corner
Are you sarcastic, bucketman?
Not about typing it up. I'll put it up. Just don't have the 7th at work.
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  #16  
Old 10-30-2006, 11:49 PM
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It appears Bucket is snoozing (Hey, I've gotta find a way to use every one of these emoticons!)


2-H Second Paragraph 7th Edition
The spine, between the shoulders, is the center of the Shoulder Turn only, not of the Left Arm, except by specific extension of the Swing Radius. Swinging from the Wrists, the Left Shoulder, the Right Elbow, the Waist or the Feet, show it to have just too many exceptions. Through the “Head” Pivot Center is recommended, it is not at all mandatory. The important thing is that the true Swing Center for ALL COMPONENTS is around a Hinge Pin with one end at the top of the Stationary Head and the other in the ground, precisely between the Feet, with no regard for Body Location or Position at any time. “On Plane” Right Shoulder Motion is possible only by tilting its axis, the spine. See 7-14. In this area the Left Shoulder is helpless. The geometry of Shoulder Control deals only with the Right Shoulder, there are no guide lines for Left Shoulder control of the Right Shoulder.


Remember what i said in a previous post- pay very special attention to the fonts that he is using- the words 1) AT, 2) ALL COMPONENTS, and 3) Body Location and Position- are KEY elements that you want to notice and understand why he is emphasizing them.

Again, I'd keep in mind that he IS addressing the issue of head still or turn around the spine in this paragraph. He probably had people debate the same issue with him. And I know from audio that he was aware of the Head Still camp and the turn around the spine camp- but he "preferred the concept of Head still" so that your vision wasn't altered and looking down at the ball - if something changed then you knew that you moved.

Here's my quick analysis/translation:
1st Sentence: The Spine is the Center of the shoulder turn- not the swing.
2nd Sentence: Swinging from the wrists only - say right around the green, or the "left shoulder only" like in the 12-5-1 basic motion- etc. - those don't have the spine as the center of the stroke.
3rd Sentence: Through the head PIVOT CENTER is recommended but not mandatory. So for a pivot center the Head is recommended. Because the eyes stay still and if the perception of the ball on the ground- changes then you know you moved.
4th Sentence: The important thing is that the true Swing Center for ALL COMPONENTS is around a Hinge Pin with one end at the top of the Stationary Head and the other in the ground, precisely between the Feet, with no regard for Body Location or Position at any time.
So he is saying - Hey, the spine isn't really the center of the swing, the Head isn't really the center of the swing- NO particular body part is or has to be the center of the swing- the important thing is that there is a center and that ALL COMPONENTS rotate around it. That Hinge Pin would go from precisely between the feet to a point at the top of the head- Notice he italicized the word "at"- that is crucial in my mind- We know up to this point that he is not making head still mandatory because we've got to consider the "rotate around your spine camp"- but typical to Mr. Kelley - it wasn't you could do either, although you can- No, he's looking for the principle that encompasses them both. That's the Hinge Pin that say goes from between the feet to at the top of the Head- say at impact fix- from there you just need to rotate around that- however you want to do it. Without regard to Body Location or Position i.e. without regard to whether the head stayed still or rotated- obviously that refers to any body location or position but in regards to our discussion here- the head seems to be of particular importance.

5th Sentence"The On Plane shoulder motion is only possible by tilting its axis, the spine"- Kind of a final statement that the spine tilts - so it really isn't a center- as opposed to the Hinge Pin concept- and then he flows into finishing the paragraph identifying the on plane right shoulder motion.

My final thoughts: From a player's perspective - this is really splitting hairs and no place for take a side/stand. When you look at video do you want your head flopping all over the place. If your biggest problem in your whole movement is whether your head is turning slightly off the ball or staying exactly still- then you're probably a plus 2 handicap- and Mr. Kelley is saying it doesn't matter dude! As long as you have a centered motion! For me personally it just seems like there are better things to worry about- this is more of a mechanical/theoretical discussion.

That's just my "guess"- or my perspective- someone could have a completely different perspective- and I'm not thinking of anyone in particular - I really do mean someone- anyone- and that's great because this just isn't a subject matter that I could see spending alot of time and effort "arguing" about. Different ideas - post them for others to learn- that's my only reason for posting is to hopefully shed some light on an area that someone is confused about.

Finally, On the practical side I would really say that the "Head Still" is a result of an efficient movement- if it is moving then you need to ask yourself why- bending your knees too much?, etc. etc.- To focus on keeping your head still without focusing on the elements that make it move- really is a dead end road. Head movement is the effect of some cause- trying to hold your head still when it is moving really is just a bandaid manuever.

In the Golfing Machine you would be primarily concerned about what the shaft, head and face are doing- of the GOLF CLUB - BUCKET!

Last edited by Mike O : 10-31-2006 at 12:24 AM.
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  #17  
Old 10-31-2006, 12:11 AM
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Homer’s words carry extreme precision, so I would put as much credence into his recommendations as much as his essentials. Since not mandatory as just that “NOT mandatory- NOT a requirement, NOT something needed to be done,” it only implies that another way can work.

Is it wrong? No, just not without compensation, not without imprecision.
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  #18  
Old 10-31-2006, 04:06 AM
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Mike and Co!

Thanks for the time you have put into this thread and helped me interpret the additional text in the instructor´s textbook.
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Old 10-31-2006, 10:18 AM
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Thanks Mike, that clears up a lot of the confusion on this issue to me. I'm not a +2, so there are other things for me to worry about. I really appreciate your effort in writing and explaining this.
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Old 11-02-2006, 02:07 PM
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Nice post Mike, I like it. Many good points.
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