Real Book Errors

[12 piece bucket]

Here's my perspective.

First, Tong, starts this thread two days ago and says that he wants to "discuss" errors in the book from a "scientific" perspective. He states one example and I ask a couple of questions for clarity and it's so silent that I can hear a pin drop. I'm all for discussions and debates as that's how you "get to the bottom of stuff". Disappointing. If you had said "I'm going to state what I believe but I really don't want to debate it" then it wouldn't be so bad.

Since I detect a small underlying theme (no one in particular) For the others, if you really wanted to do a service to Mr. Kelley then you'd want to listen to seemingly contrary ideas (from yours) and then either prove your perspective or learn during your analysis and change your perspective completely or in some way. It's not about Mr. Kelley - never was- it's about facts. You're not defending or representing him well by talking about him - how great he was, etc. you'd represent him better by hearing the facts, understanding the issues and learning FOR YOURSELF. Initially - having someone asking a question or questioning the legitimacy of a statement another person made - shouldn't be considered as a negative (an attack on the individual) but rather a positive (an inquiring mind). Of course, via further questioning or lack thereof- you'd discover if you are dealing with an inquiring mind or someone who is attacking an individual- and then you act accordingly i.e. move on, etc.

Finally, I really liked Bulldog's posts so nothing against you but I did go to the site that you linked and copied this quote:
"In a good swing, the wrists stay cocked until about 50 millisec before impact. So the club "lag" goes from 90° to 0° in 50 milliseconds. This is an average of 1.8° per millisecond."
Before I comment- believe me I'm all for debate in order to learn and I'm not knocking this guys website- but the above quote is concerning in that A) the wrists don't cock 90 degrees although with the #3 accumulator rotated sideways it might look that way. B) Certainly from a face on perspective it might look like that but that really doesn't have anything to do with actual club "lag". Doesn't mean that he doesn't know his other stuff- but since we are talking about "inaccurate scientific statements" in this thread- I'll add that to the list and stand to be corrected, debated, enlightened. And I'd be more than happy to clarify if that brief description is not clear. It's one of many "illusions" where more movement is implied than really takes place- and hence now we know why Bucket's swing has more moving parts than a .......................... getting tired I'll let someone else finish the sentence. (That's right grease Bucket! Bring it! Or have you run out of your pimpdaddy ammo?)

Is somebody a lil' jealous that I popped a shot another unsuspecting victim??? That's sooooo cute Mikey . . . you're jealous.

What's wrong with talking about Homer Kelley being great AND listening to what other dudes have to say? I don't think Tong is a Homer Hater or Book Basher or nothing like that . . . I told him not to respond to you too by the way because it would make you spin out of control . . . but I guarntee you that there are some that have an axe to grind . . . I'll listen and learn from anybody . . . . even to a bedwetter like you.

Aren't you supposed to be watching The Facts of Life right now? You got a crush on the fat chick right?

[6bmike]

I don't think Tong is a Homer Hater or Book Basher or nothing like that . . .

That's right, Leo isn't.


But my point is that a mere plotting tool- calling point location a vector- is not something to claim as bad science.

If Leo- who is as inquisitive as anyone I know- or anyone else had something 'real' to deliberate, than that is a different ballgame.

[Mike O]

Is somebody a lil' jealous that I popped a shot another unsuspecting victim??? That's sooooo cute Mikey . . . you're jealous.

What's wrong with talking about Homer Kelley being great AND listening to what other dudes have to say? I don't think Tong is a Homer Hater or Book Basher or nothing like that . . . I told him not to respond to you too by the way because it would make you spin out of control . . . but I guarntee you that there are some that have an axe to grind . . . I'll listen and learn from anybody . . . . even to a bedwetter like you.

Aren't you supposed to be watching The Facts of Life right now? You got a crush on the fat chick right?

And you promised me that you wouldn't mention the bedwetting problem- so much for that!

[Mike O]

Three pages in and we got squat- don't really get it. Good idea with no implementation.

[coophitter]

I've always wondered about the time and space measurements concerning the interval between impact and separation. Does Kelley cite numbers that are significantly different than current instruments measure? I took a lesson from a fellow AI and was informed that a square face at impact in an otherwise ideal 300 yard driver swing would be significantly closed enough by separation to send the ball way more left of target than my non-scientific mind can believe. I was also informed by the same AI on the same day that for every inch that the ball was played behind low point on that same 300 yard driver swing, the ball would end up 20 yards or more to the right of target. A film of my swing showed me to have the ball set at address two inches behind an ideal low point opposite the outside line of my left shoulder and therefore misaligned right of target by 40 yards. I was then told that I would require of my swing quite a menu of compensations to subconsciously choose from to make the ball go straight whether it be one choice a' la carte, a combo platter, or a smattering of each.

I don't have a book on hand and I can't remember if Kelley even offered up concrete numbers concerning the above. This AI pretty much said Iron Byron and the Ping machine supported his claims.

Did Kelley offer any definite take or measurements concerning any of this, and if he did, was he right?, wrong?, outdated?, or were even precise measurements of this sort possible when he was alive? Have new club/ball equipment technologies and materials significantly changed any measurements concerning basic club and ball behavior since Kelley's time? Does my fancy new driver's clubhead speed during a centered strike still get slowed down by 20% and do my fancy new balls still have that .7 restitution thing?

I'm an AI with an English degree and only answered Chapter 2 questions by quoting the book. I was fortunate to have Tomosello as my mentor because I don't think he knew what to do with Chapter 2 either. I wouldn't know an error if I saw one in any edition of TGM. All I know is that whatever Kelley told Tomosello to tell me turned my golf world upside down and shook out loads of crap that got replaced by a few remarkably simple concepts that I still consider errorless in content yet happily flawed in real world application. The greatest thrill for me to this day is that because of Homer Kelley I don't anticipate bad shots and the bad shots I still often hit into woods. water, or wherever are still usually struck fairly well.