Stack & Tilt, 5 Simple Key and Tilt, Extension and Rotation

[MizunoJoe]

IMO Hogan uses his R arm, but not like TGM R arm thrust, but like throwing a baseball half underarm half sidearm just like he said. More like R pec curl type of motion, instead of R triceps push.

Then why does the right hand not move away from the right shoulder? The right shoulder and right hand are moving in unison, and that doesn't happen in a throwing motion. I.e., if he were throwing at release, his hands would outrun the right shoulder. In MORAD terminology, it's a cp swing. Think of a hammer thrower - he pulls his hands inward against the pull of the weight on the chain and he's still pulling when he lets go. He can't throw because of the chain.

[svsvincenzo]

Then why does the right hand not move away from the right shoulder? The right shoulder and right hand are moving in unison, and that doesn't happen in a throwing motion. I.e., if he were throwing at release, his hands would outrun the right shoulder. In MORAD terminology, it's a cp swing. Think of a hammer thrower - he pulls his hands inward against the pull of the weight on the chain and he's still pulling when he lets go. He can't throw because of the chain.

Because he is already rotating hard. If you throw ONLY, yeah the R elbow would straighten. But remember he tried to fire hose hips at Startdown, which really cranked up the rotation, and his L side extension allows that rotation to get even faster. Pure PA4. Then at Release/hands hip height, he starts thinking fire that R arm in sidearm/undermine throwing manner.

IMO, the more of what he did in BS, the RFT, the longer the R elbow would be bent and closer to the R hip.

Remember this is a very fast motion. The R elbow suddenly straighten starting visually right at Rekease/shaft parallel in DS. From thereon it straightens slowly as the DS is very fast. His R arm and R wrist is very very straight in followthru. Note also that his shoulders don't turn/rotate as much in finish like Immelman for example and Tiger circa 2000. So I'd say it's more PA1 for Hogan from shaft parallel, but he's also still rotating due to the earlier hip turn crank.

[svsvincenzo]

Btw...this is IMO why HK prefers 4-1-2-3.

[MizunoJoe]

Because he is already rotating hard. If you throw ONLY, yeah the R elbow would straighten. But remember he tried to fire hose hips at Startdown, which really cranked up the rotation, and his L side extension allows that rotation to get even faster. Pure PA4. Then at Release/hands hip height, he starts thinking fire that R arm in sidearm/undermine throwing manner.

IMO, the more of what he did in BS, the RFT, the longer the R elbow would be bent and closer to the R hip.

Remember this is a very fast motion. The R elbow suddenly straighten starting visually right at Rekease/shaft parallel in DS. From thereon it straightens slowly as the DS is very fast. His R arm and R wrist is very very straight in followthru. Note also that his shoulders don't turn/rotate as much in finish like Immelman for example and Tiger circa 2000. So I'd say it's more PA1 for Hogan from shaft parallel, but he's also still rotating due to the earlier hip turn crank.

It's not humanly possible to rotate hard enough from release to impact to prevent the right hand from moving farther and faster than the right shoulder, if he's throwing. He isn't throwing the right forearm, it's getting thrown. The right arm is straightening in the release interval, not because he's throwing, but because the LW is uncocking from rotational force.

Apparently you forgot how fast the motion is when you previously said that Hogan starts thinking at release point!

[svsvincenzo]

His rotation slows down with the R arm throw, but it's too fast that you wont notice.look at his finish. It's very different compared to so done who really tries rotating the pivot thru impact (Immelman, Tiger 2000).

That R arm thrust puts so much power into the Release of the club that Hogan's pivot rotation doesn't slow down!

[svsvincenzo]

And MJ, I think it's not a R triceps push...it's a R pectoral/chest curl...

[svsvincenzo]

Since it's a R pec curl, the R shoulder doesn't slow much or is affected much...you can still rotate, or at least that's what I feel...hehee

[MizunoJoe]

His rotation slows down with the R arm throw, but it's too fast that you wont notice.look at his finish. It's very different compared to so done who really tries rotating the pivot thru impact (Immelman, Tiger 2000).

That R arm thrust puts so much power into the Release of the club that Hogan's pivot rotation doesn't slow down!

It looks different only because he's on a shallower elbow plane!

It's all pivot thrust from release to impact and no right arm thrust of any kind. Any kind of throwing effort in the release interval would interfere with, not help, the freewheeling shaft.

[svsvincenzo]

It looks different only because he's on a shallower elbow plane!

It's all pivot thrust from release to impact and no right arm thrust of any kind. Any kind of throwing effort in the release interval would interfere with, not help, the freewheeling shaft.

The difference I'm referring to the way his shoulders turn past impact. His shoulders doesn't seem to turn fully up to its max limit, unlike Immelman. For me, this shows that he's not into pivot thrust anymore during release. His pivot at that time is just a byproduct of the earlier hip start at Startdown.

The 3 R hands thrust or slap doesn't interfere IMO, in fact I believe it helps release and throw out the shaft from parallel to targetline to inline.

Remember his shoulders turn quite steep during release thru impact, so his pivot doesn't help much in releasing the shaft.

And there's a bonus...he was able to release the shaft with power since 3 R hands is clearly stronger and faster, but also he was able to consistently square the face thru impact bec using the 3 R hands delays face closure.

[MizunoJoe]

The difference I'm referring to the way his shoulders turn past impact. His shoulders doesn't seem to turn fully up to its max limit, unlike Immelman. For me, this shows that he's not into pivot thrust anymore during release. His pivot at that time is just a byproduct of the earlier hip start at Startdown.

The 3 R hands thrust or slap doesn't interfere IMO, in fact I believe it helps release and throw out the shaft from parallel to targetline to inline.

Remember his shoulders turn quite steep during release thru impact, so his pivot doesn't help much in releasing the shaft.

And there's a bonus...he was able to release the shaft with power since 3 R hands is clearly stronger and faster, but also he was able to consistently square the face thru impact bec using the 3 R hands delays face closure.

Look at this -

Young Hogan in the 1st few Swings, 5 Lessons Hogan at around :37, old Hogan at 1:12, in every instance he makes a max rotation of the shoulders in the follow through up to his personal flexibility limit. If Immelman or anyone else goes farther, it's only because they are more flexible.

I don't quite know how to express how 180 degs wrong you are here. The shoulder rotation and lack of any right arm throwing action in the following is clear. The right arm moves at the same rate as the shoulder turn, which is not vertical as you say. You have decided you want to throw through impact and feel it's necessary to justify it by Hogan's Swing - you can certainly throw if you choose, others do it, but you'll have to look for a swing model which isn't cp.