MARTEE:
"Top two pictures, something is out of whack. The backgrounds which should be static are not the same. I...The camera in one is higher than the other, and also closer."
MANZELLA: The picture are not in a 'sequence,' so what?
The ball position is almost exact, so the angle is the same for reference sake. And at the top of THIS swing, Hogan's head is NOT PRECISELY IN THE MIDDLE OF HIS FEET!
MARTEE:
"Again there is a difference between frames regarding the background and your red line is definitely not in the same place if you use the background as a reference."
MANZELLA: Nope. It is not in a squence (see above). But the two picture were lined up PERFECTLY in Photoshop and the ball and the red line are EXACTLY THE SAME!!!
Hogan, simply turned around his spine on this day.
MARTEE:
The Tom's pictures...blah, blah, blah....
MANZELLA: Very shortly, on my new site, Mike Finney will post his entire swing video collection.
Trust me, Mike numbers are dead on.
But, like I said....go ahead and put your head precisely between your feet and keep it there.
If you are trying to prove that all great players had the head precisely between their feet and kept it dead still on the backswing and on to impact...
You can't win.
I AM saying that having the head precisely between the feet and keeping it dead still on the backswing and on to impact IS A VALID way.
But so is the base of the neck center.
But... here are pics that are lined up sequence photos.
(prediction: they still won't convice the peanut gallery)
If you are trying to prove that all great players had the head precisely between their feet and kept it dead still on the backswing and on to impact...
You can't win.
You're right, Brian. Fortunately, that is not the case.
But thank you for the Billy Casper illustration. With his chin is pointed at the back of that Ball from Address to the end of the Follow-Through and with his Right Forearm Pick-Up, he is my favorite example.
The truth is that, unlike your self-mandated Head position, Homer Kelley advised...
Wherever you position your Head at Impact Fix...
THAT is where it must stay.
Ideally, though, according to the same Mr. Kelley, that position is "precisely between the feet." This is TREMENDOUSLY important ground we are exploring here, ground that will revolutionize conventional golf instruction.
Actually, we're all the way back to 1905 and Harry Vardon's book, The Complete Golfer ...
"The head should be kept perfectly motionless from time of the address until the ball has been sent away and it is well on its flight."
And Mr. Vardon had the Game -- and the Pivot -- to prove it.
I wish you the best with the "precisely between the feet and still" head/center concept, and you wish to revolutionize golf with it.
I will agree on this...if you got everyone to do it, it would "revolutionize golf."
I think we can both agree that these home video 'stills' are not representative of the Ben Hogan who won four United States Opens. The Stroke illustrated is a Sway. And, at his greatest, Ben Hogan did not Sway.
The Basic Tenets of Homer Kelley's Golfing Machine are contained in 1-L #1 and #2:
#1 The Stationary Post (Player's Head) accurately returns the Clubhead to the Ball (Centered Arc).
#2 The Post may Turn (Pivot), but it does not Sway or Bob.
These concepts are central to the thesis. Centered Arc. You either believe it or you don't. If you do, then you teach according to the precepts of The Golfing Machine. If you do not...well...
You do not.
I will soon post some classic Hogan Ravielli drawings most have not yet seen. Plus fourteen pages of descriptive material in Hogan's own hand.
This should be a good debate on whether the 'through the head pivot center' and the 'base of the neck pivot center' will help more golfers.
But...
You are totally convinced one way.
And that's great.
I could post pics for 99 years that made my point, and no one on your side of the NON-debate will relent.
Cool.
But...remember this:
The WHOLE GOLF WORLD taught this 'perfectly still head stuff' for at least 30 years before I started my teaching.
I saw SO MANY terrible pivots because of it, it was hard to believe.
But...
I know—they were doing it wrong, they weren't using right forearm pickup, they didn't set the flying wedges, they didn't trace with their right forearms, etc. etc.
But,
Lots of famous golfers didn't do ANY of that and they are in the Hall-of-Fame.
So...
That's what makes the world—and the golf instruction world—and the Golfing Machine instruction world—go 'round.
I just think that the IMPERATIVES should dictate all of the components and choices, and you believe something different.
And that's wonderful...
As far as my approach not being "in the book" or "by the book"....
I use the book as a tool, and I believe my method of instruction, IMPERATIVES (the only thing the ball knows) dictating components and choices, to be superior to any other method for the masses of golfers worldwide.
Last edited by brianmanzella : 12-28-2005 at 01:53 AM.
Lynn, when you first look at a golfer you are teaching who is hitting hooks, with a strong single action grip, but with un-set wedges and a through the neck pivot center and obvious shoulder turn takeaway, what do you do first?
I think both Yoda and Brian have made their points. It was great seeing all the illustrations. I respect both their knowledge, but I see this discussion heading South soon......
Just an FYI.........
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