9-1-5...Pics

[Yoda]

DRAWINGS???.....Don't know how much they would prove in this particular thread. Although I would love to see them.

I thought the name was enough.

Apparently not.

Ravielli drawings are photographs with an attitude.

[comdpa]

I just think that the IMPERATIVES should dictate all of the components and choices, and you believe something different.

"And I did it...maiiiii.....waaaaayyyyy"

This is why they call him Yoda.

[tongzilla]

This should be a good debate on whether the 'through the head pivot center' and the 'base of the neck pivot center' will help more golfers.

I want more on this debate!

These concepts are central to the thesis. Centered Arc. You either believe it or you don't. If you do, then you teach according to the precepts of The Golfing Machine. If you do not...well...

You do not.

What if you believe 100% in the concepts of The Golfing Machine, but realise that there are some golfers out there who can play better without adhering to a Stationary Head, and by getting them to try to maintain a Stationary Head, they will not play to their full potential? Would you still get them to maintain a Stationary Head, or attempt some other variation, e.g. the 'top of the spine' Pivot Center.

[comdpa]

I want more on this debate!





What if you believe 100% in the concepts of The Golfing Machine, but realise that there are some golfers out there who can play better without adhering to a Stationary Head, and by getting them to try to maintain a Stationary Head, they will not play to their full potential? Would you still get them to maintain a Stationary Head, or attempt some other variation, e.g. the 'top of the spine' Pivot Center.

Tong,

Those guys who "don't do the essentials" or don't do what is recommended for that matter simply have extreme athletic ability that eludes the general human population.

Case in point, I took my student out on course one fine day. On a par 5, I hit it 311 yards with a flat left wrist. He kills it 359 (this is no typo) yards with a bending left wrist, throwaway and a nice little bobbing action.

I have worked with him on a couple of things, and more often than not, he will hit VERY POORLY with what I have instructed.
I expect this to happen all the time.

One of the reasons is because the old habits are still dominant and trying to override the new ones that the player is trying to ingrain.

Sure, he will make me look good if he nails it the first time around (which happens) but then it makes me suspect if he did not use his old procedure instead.

Usually the "strike rate" is 3/10, then 4/10 until he reaches unconscious proficiency.

Can he get better? Of course. But do not expect the permanent transition in your students to be immediate. Getting from "here" to "there" is going to take some time.

"All things are difficult before they are easy."
Thomas Fuller, Physician

It is this transitory period that you have to rough it out mentally. The player will be thinking: "I was playing well with the old procedure...this new one sucks."

But when the old finally succumbs to the new habit, the player and coach will in joyous unison say: "WE did it." It is the instructor that informs and explains, the student absorbs and applies.

A transition will not take you 2 years...but it also will not take you 2 minutes. It is simply a matter of overlaying the old habit with a new one.

Want more examples? Plenty of Tour Pros do not have an onplane right forearm, stationary head, flying wedges etc...BUT they still manage to compensate and get back to impact correctly which is all that matters.

90% of the golfing population at large unfortunately do not have this ability to compensate.

Mr Kelly did 40 years of research which was validated by a Professor in quantum physics in Alabama.

If the man says any shift in planes is dangerous, it probably is. If the man says that a stationary head is ESSENTIAL, it probably is.

Don't reinvent the wheel

[brianmanzella]

Leo,

I don't think you are going to get a legit discussion on this.

Centered Arc!

NO kidding. Who in the heck is saying the POST should move from release point THROUGH the follow-through?

Not me.

You see "Golfing Machine" fans, Leo "Tongzilla" was an attendee at the Canton School.

He is a young man.

He is tall and lean.

He is smart.

and........he has physical ability.

When he would dutifully attempt the "Pivot Tripod Center" with his head precisely between his feet, he would hit a weak slice with about a 200-210 carry......

....tops!

and In my opinion—doing this "Pivot Tripod Center" concept—Leo had a top-of-the-backstroke position that, was for all practical purposes, a reverse pivot.

He just didn't look 'golf like' at the top of the swing....to me....after 23 years of teaching everyone from hacker to Ryder Cupper.

So, when Leo worked with me, I put him in the top of the backswing position that looked like a GOLFER...to me...after giving 23 thousand golf lessons.

The students who were nearby confirmed—Leo looked more like a golfer.

Why?

Because the 5 guys would were watching had looked at golf on TV for 23 thousand hours collectively.....

and Leo DID look more like a golfer.

But, I digress...

Position Golf! The faithful cries!

Nope.

You see, I couldn't give a rat's rear end WHAT Leo LOOKED like, I knew that the REAL problem was Leo had to work WAY TO HARD to get his right shoulder on plane on the downstroke from the "Pivot Tripod Center" concept backswing.

From the Manzella "maiiiii.....waaaaayyyyy" backswing, Leo hit a STRONG 240-250 carry draw.

Great right?

Nope.

Leo was sad,

Leo—a great student and student of G.O.L.F.—didn't want to hit these TOUR-like shots with a backswing that violated any 'rules of G.O.L.F.'

I brought Ben Doyle over to look at Leo's backswing, Ben Loved the Manzella-"maiiiii.....waaaaayyyyy" backswing. He then posed Leo in a very similar—if not exact—top of the backstroke position.

Yet, Leo was sad.

So, Leo left the school being able to hit it pure as snow with the Manzella-"maiiiii.....waaaaayyyyy" backswing or 30 yards shorter and 20 yards to the right with a "Pivot Tripod Center" concept backswing.

He has then talked to some other noted teachers, like Bobby Schaffer, who confirmed what I am saying, that the "Pivot Tripod Center" concept backswing, is just that—a concept. One way to skin a cat. But NOT the only way.

Leo still would like some nice debate on what works better in the real world, but
all he gets is Frank Sinatra songs.

So, sports fans, we sit a place called the crossroads, looking dead in the eye of another concept—branding.

Lynn is positioning himself as the ultimate staright out of Homer Kelley's mouth teacher on planet earth, ready to revolutionize golf with the "Pivot Tripod Center" concept backswing and the "Right Forearm Takeaway."He has done a great job with this positioning, and a GREAT job getting Homer's little-known concepts some well-deserved light. He is a super motivator, a charming large group indoor presenter, and like Ben Doyle says "He really knows the book."

Brian Manzella—that would be me—just wants to be the best teacher on the planet, and take over (revolutionize) golf by helping the most players play better and the most teachers teach better, by using science, like—but not exclusively—The Golfing Machine, to assist the teacher in finding a pattern that the student can produce the lowest scores with. Letting "The Imperatives Dictate the components." My brand is simply this—I can get you to do it and I can get you to understand it, but the IT will be, whatever works AS LONG AS IT PRODUCES A STRAIGHT PLANE LINE, CLUBHEAD LAG and CONTROLS THE CLUBFACE WITH HINGE ACTION.

In my opinion—yes "maiiiii.....waaaaayyyyy" opinion—the golf world is better for having us both.

And Leo need to turn around the base of his neck.

[bgolfing]

I am a little confused about the head movement/setup discussion, which may be a little different than the food fight here but thought I would post anyway. What about the head movement of the following and what is wrong with it?
-Nicklaus and Faldo with the little head twist before takeaway
-Duval, Annika, Durant with the head turn to get thru the ball
-Curtis Strange backswing head movement
-Tiger's head drop.

All these players have a different head movement but all have won multiple times with many Majors.

[comdpa]

In my opinion—yes "maiiiii.....waaaaayyyyy" opinion—the golf world is better for having us both.

And Leo need to turn around the base of his neck.

Brian, you are a real interesting guy. Any chance of you coming over to Singapore. Would love to buy you a beer!

[brianmanzella]

I love to 'come over."

If you want to "take over" the golf wrold, you have to be willing to travel to the golf WORLD.

But, I drink Diet Coke.

[Martee]

Okay, maybe I am missing something here so if a few will humor me and respond to the questions, maybe I will understand.. Please bear with my strange logical path here:

1. The head, movement on its own can be
a. Up and Down
b. Around (rotate)
c. Side to side (ear to shoulder)
d. Combination of the above

Isn't all this independent head moving accomplished with the base, the neck for a lack of proper technical terms, as the point of movement?

Isn't this the type of independent movement that Homer said was not to happen regarding the Stationary Head?

2. This 'tripod' is it suppose to be an 'Isosceles Triangle (2 sides of equal length)'? Doesn't a tripod indicate 3 legs?

Now for my ignorance...

3. Where does TGM state the head is to be in the center of the stance?

I mean 1-L-1, 1-L-2 and 2-H, don't state that as I read them.

4. If the pivot center of the shoulders are permitted to move (other than rotate), side to side, up or down, doesn't this indicate either
a. Set up position is not correct if this movement accomplishes correct alignment at impact?
b. If the movement moves off and the back on prior to impact, isn't this a case several compensating moves that serve no purpose if they weren't done? (This assumes that moves counter each other to null out the result).
c. Wouldn't the Low Point be moved by moving the pivot center? (Would this account for a variation where the ball placement would either be more forward or backward depending upon the movement from what might consider optimal as defined by the primary lever?)
d. Can 'POWER' not alignment be accomplished more effectively with a moving pivot center over a static center? If so does this require a certain degree of hand/eye coordination, timing, etc.?

5. Movement of the pivot center, would this not encourage swaying and bobbing in the less physical golfers?

6. Do we get confused when monitoring he head by the face on view, when in-fact rotation is acceptable and most heads have more depth than width coupled with the angle lending itself to appear to move up and down and sideways when it is really rotation? Obviously some head movements are truly head movements when we see them the static reference points in the background clearly show this, while others the appearance may be deceiving?

I have always subscribed to a stationary head, rotate okay, but moving off the ball or toward the ball seem to me making the golf stroke more difficult and more dependent upon timing and other physical and mental attributes. In short it complicates IMO. That is not to say you can't move it, and that you won't get better resutls but the reason for the better results may be that you are now compensating for mixed component variations or fault execution.

So without attack, etc. Can I get some answers so I can better understand the discussion and learn....

I think a topic on the 'Tripod' and component variations how it impacts alignments and Impact Fix would be interesting in a different thread.

[Tom Bartlett]

What about Sandy Lyle??? The guy wins a couple of majors with all kinds of head movement, then tries to "fix his problem" and is never heard from again. Wouldn't you think that someone who rose to the level of Major Champion with so called bad mechanics would improve when he did it right?