The Finish Swivel

[Mathew]

I don't recall the section off the top of my head, but I'm surprised this conversation hasn't gotten back around to the straightening right arm and its effect(s) on clubHEAD and RPM/rate of closing.

A properly straightening right arm (motion/direction) and elbow location, prevents any 'early roll' before both the both arms straight position and helps ensure hinge action stays perpendicular to its associated plane.

Im not sure if I quite agree with you Edz, this is something which only recently i've really gotten into my head even though intellectually I knew it before.

The right arms role is to merely stretch out pp3 with extensor action(the stretch), right forearm pickup(the movement), and 'lock in' the plane by tracing its baseline (the point of that stretch) unless your hitting in which case the right arm also powers the downstroke(the movement). Remember hitting or swinging it is always a left arm stroke. The right arm allows control of certain alignments - as the right forearm traces back the plane line it controls the secondary hinge (the one that lifts the arm up and down) and cocking of the left wrist per the magic of the right forearm... it maintains its own impact alignment (right flying wedge) by pushing pp3 going towards the line. However the hinge action of the left arm staying flat on the primary hinge and its swivel joint turning and rolling whilst the left arm makes its motion against that hinge powered either by the pivot or right forearm creating a pressure against it(hint to those that think theres something called right arm swinging - its not happening ever ever!) is entirely a job for the left arm alone to monitor, it is not the right arms job to get involved with trying to monitoring it.

[EdZ]

Im not sure if I quite agree with you Edz, this is something which only recently i've really gotten into my head even though intellectually I knew it before.

The right arms role is to merely stretch out pp3 with extensor action(the stretch), right forearm pickup(the movement), and 'lock in' the plane by tracing its baseline (the point of that stretch) unless your hitting in which case the right arm also powers the downstroke(the movement). Remember hitting or swinging it is always a left arm stroke. The right arm allows control of certain alignments - as the right forearm traces back the plane line it controls the secondary hinge (the one that lifts the arm up and down) per the magic of the right forearm... it maintains its own impact alignment (right flying wedge) by pushing pp3 going towards the line. However the hinge action of the left arm and its swivel is entirely a job for the left arm alone to monitor, it is not the right arms job to get involved with trying to monitoring it.

Note I mentioned right arm motion, not right arm action, an important difference.

[Mathew]

Note I mentioned right arm motion, not right arm action, an important difference.

Oh ok, ill let ya off then...lol

[Mathew]

However the hinge action of the left arm staying flat on the primary hinge and its swivel joint turning and rolling whilst the left arm makes its motion against that hinge powered either by the pivot or right forearm creating a pressure against it(hint to those that think theres something called right arm swinging - its not happening ever ever!) is entirely a job for the left arm alone to monitor, it is not the right arms job to get involved with trying to monitoring it.

Theres something I want to add to this....

The only way to make a hinge action of the clubface is if that swivel (left wrist) is held FLAT through at least from impact to followthrough and in its impact location against the blade of that hinge that the entire left arm is against. Otherwise your clubface control is feel and feel alone !

Edit - there is something else I want to add. Even though the upper left arm is theortically always going to be against that hinge regardless of how 'it is turned or rolled' - The real control is in that left wrist staying flat to the blade of the hinge which is what you monitor - so in actual fact even if the swivel is working is rolling against the flat part of the upper arm in 2k it is still a hinge action because the wrist is against the blade. But before any guys get their hopes up - this is not what 'Ben does'. But if you truely want the left arm to 'work as one' through impact - you'll need to keep it flat also (whatever its location may be) against the hinge at least through impact to followthrough, but it is not at all manditory...just monitor the left wrist to make sure its vertical to its associated plane of whatever hinge action you produce. This could spark off a whole new debate - should acc#3 be a motion made with just the wrist....

[birdie_man]

I heard from Brian Manzella that Ben's normal shot is a noticeable fade. That's pretty counter-intuitive given that over-roll isn't it? Obviously something going on at Impact that's different.

Fade? That's even batter.

[birdie_man]

No, Birdie, Homer Kelley was not God.

But he was the author of The Golfing Machine.

And my post dealt only with the Clubface Alignments detailed therein.

Further, no one -- certainly not me -- said Ben's swing was "FLAT OUT WRONG." In fact, I said in the introduction to my post that the (obviously extreme) Alignments "may have been intended and for a purpose."

And "teaching slicers how not to slice" was never an issue in "the debate." The issue was the Hinge Action and Swivel Alignments as defined in The Golfing Machine. And even if there was such an issue, are we to believe that Ben is a Slicer in need of help? Please.

In fact, there has been no debate -- on the issue -- at all. I stated emphatically that the alignments demonstrated in this particular Stroke were NOT those dictated in Paragraph 2-G of The Golfing Machine. The Clubface was not maintained Vertical to an Associated Plane (Horizontal, Angled or Vertical) for any meaningful time through Impact, and it was Swiveled well past the On Plane Alignment early into the Finish.

I supported my post with factual references to the text.

There has been no argument as to these alignments.

Lynn,

First of all, I think that message was in response to Matthew....he spoke of conforming, etc.

.....

I realize that you didn't say exactly (i.e. to quote you) that "It is flat-out wrong" Lynn.

....and actually, I didn't catch the part where you said the Alignments "may have been intended and for a purpose"....thanks for pointing that out....that helps.

I dunno.....I just get the feeling that you and some people really are very opposed to this more-or-less entirely. Unless I missed something. Did I miss something??

...

You're right....you haven't raised any debate about whether this is about teaching slicers to slice....that is a related, but seperated issue. You're right. (maybe we can address that one later, no?)

The issue is Ben making a swing in that particular video....you are right on that one actually.

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It has been said....it works for him (apparently)....and apparently it works for some people.

IF (if) Ben can hit straight shots (or slight fades, as it may be) all day long....case closed, as far as I'm concerned- it must be a viable way to swing. Not by Homer's definition of a Hinge Action neccessarily....but a viable way to move the golf ball from point A to B.

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I have to assume also, that Ben and Brian fully understand how a Hinge Action (the way you teach it Lynn...the way it's described in TGM) works....I also have to assume that they're experimented with it fully. I understand the argument about executing a Hinge Action as a Swivel Action.....I have to assume they do too. They must. Who knows....I could be wrong.

....

That's enough for me really....(unless I've gotten my facts wrong).

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BTW, I said that I thought Ben's Swivel was "a little strange"....

But then again....I don't like liver and onions much either....my dad likes em.

...

Good topic here.

[Yoda]

I dunno.....I just get the feeling that you and some people really are very opposed to this more-or-less entirely. Unless I missed something. Did I miss something??

Thank you for your clarifying reply, Birdie. I appreciate it.

Responding to your question...

I teach the Mechanics of Hinge Action and Swivel Action as defined in The Golfing Machine (2-G; 7-10 and 10-10).

What others choose to teach (and do) is their business. Including exaggerating the one (Swivel Action) in order to achieve the other (Hinge Action). Hopefully, they explain to the student the difference between 'Feel and Real' and their use of exaggeration -- a valid technique -- to achieve the ultimate goal. But if they don't, they don't. As I said, it is none of my business.

However, if I am asked in open forum if a certain exaggeration is a standard to be achieved, then that question becomes my business. The Instructor's job is to inform and explain. The Golfing Machine has given me the tools to do so with precision, and I choose that path. Let others do as they wish.

Sincerely, I am not "opposed" to those who choose to do it their 'own way.' Even if that way lies outside the 144 Catalogued Variations of Chapter 10. That is the purpose of the "X" Classification as introduced in 1-K and explained in 10-0.

In the words of Homer Kelley:

"The Star System does not advocate teaching 'unorthodox' procedures but does make provision for them." (10-0)

[12 piece bucket]

Ok. . . I was thinking about this whole thing. How about if you forget about the Inclined Plane for a second? Raise the motion up where it's on the Horizontal Basic Plane ala Baseball. If you execute the Swivel with the Right Palm facing the Plane it feels and looks right. But if you over-cook the swivel it just don't work. Try it an see what you think. I don't think you see any baseball player executing this "over-cooked" move.

[Yoda]

Just to be accurate. Homer Kelley was not an engineer, he was an engineering aid.

And, just before he retired...

The only man at Boeing whose signature could release a B-47 as fully-inspected and technically ready for sale.

[birdie_man]

Wow.....that's pretty cool. Didn't know that.