I find Standard Hip Action to be conducive of a Shoulder Turn Takeaway. That "perceptible slackness in the Hip and Shoulder relationship", which Lynn referred to above, can IMO easily cause the Hands to move back too low and too much inside.
That's not saying that you cannot produce wonderful Swings with Standard Hip Action. And I agree that the slackness in the Hip/Shoulder relationship seems to fit the Swinger's pattern, particularly the Dragging Clubhead Takeaway. But much more difficult to master than Delayed Hip Action.
Nice....
But why are you implying that standard hip action which is described as actuating the shoulders in both directions has a "perceptible slackness..." when in fact he makes the distinction between zero hip action and standard with the following description
"10-15-ZERO HIP ACTION except with zero hip turn, this can resemble standard hip action above, but there is usually a perceptible slackness between the hip and shoulder relationship in both directions, the motion is a hip turn only, not a true action in either direction"
Unlike Standard hip action in which there is not a slackness because the hips are actuating the shoulders both ways, it is a true action in both directions
But why are you implying that standard hip action which is described as actuating the shoulders in both directions has a "perceptible slackness..."
I stand corrected. I do not have a book in front of me right now and was only quoting from Lynn's post. I thought Lynn was referring to Standard Hip Action with that "perceptible slackness" while he was probably referring to Zero Hip Action if that is where the term is used in the book. I would not have used that expression on my own. I shall better look in the book next time before I post.
The point I was trying to make is that the dragging effect that Standard Hip Action has on the Shoulders can lead to a Shoulder Turn Takeaway.
Yes, correct angle of approach uses closed stance line, ...that is why I deleted that sentence. Maybe it is not the overall length that is the important factor but rather the live tension that is more easily noticed with a restriction to a motion (which would be conducive to shorter overall swing radius), such is the case with flat left foot action, right anchor and delayed hip action. I think the key is that in 10-15-b he says "tighten the left side tension and set the stage perfectly for the hips to initiate the downstroke shoulder acceleration. Which is a very crucial moment and concept when swinging. 10-19-c drag loading wants you to launch the right shoulder down plane via the hips, and as homer states delayed hip action can set the stage perfectly for this.
Yes sir....BUT....(you are doing a nice job in your analysis by the way)...in the "ideal" of the "uncompensated stroke" (not fully defined by Homer)...the pattern(S)ideally would be constructed so the ALL components match the procedure and the selected delivery line and release type and plane angle....from there you start building your "battleship" as opposed to your canoe. So crap matches some crap don't...but to me it would all depend on the "biggies" and follow from there...for the uncompensated...but if you wanna "do anything" obviously you can tour pros can...but since we is trying to systematize...some things is better'n other thangs....at least as far as easy of producing ball flight with an economy of motion....could be why Homer was a self described HITTING afficionado...procedure dependent on superior alignments...
Are you suggesting that a player using a Hitter's Angle of Approach procedure with Top alignments like the King in your pictures PRETURN HIS HIPS as far as illustrated in these pictures before the backstroke motion (Start Up) starts?
Sure....Eddie Cox has developed something along these lines I believe to be a FANTASTIC HITTING pattern....you pre-turn the hips in an amount to approximate the angle of approach...which is basically approximated by your on plane right forearm at address...so in your LOOK LOOK LOOK process you are observing with the pre-turn...the line from your left knee to right hip joint is approximately parallel to the angle of approach 2-J-3 style on the ground....this 3-D imaginary line approximates the direction of your backstroke hand path....those King lines are the MODEL TOP for this particular pattern (less "visually flat left wrist" though ...more geometrically flat). But if you look at the King...he achieved these alignments more in dynamic fashion...but I think it would be much easier with the pre-turn to establish these lines at address...that's where you is going...so why not start there...then all of your path/delivery is right there for you to LOOK LOOK LOOK at...you have an approximation of "this is the path my hands must travel on". GOOD STUFF....
I find Standard Hip Action to be conducive of a Shoulder Turn Takeaway. That "perceptible slackness in the Hip and Shoulder relationship", which Lynn referred to above, can IMO easily cause the Hands to move back too low and too much inside.
That's not saying that you cannot produce wonderful Swings with Standard Hip Action. And I agree that the slackness in the Hip/Shoulder relationship seems to fit the Swinger's pattern, particularly the Dragging Clubhead Takeaway. But much more difficult to master than Delayed Hip Action.
I say MAYBE on this one.....if you have a flatter shoulder turn...the the club can go low and under....have a look at AP...hands in with steeper shoulders.
I find Standard Hip Action to be conducive of a Shoulder Turn Takeaway. That "perceptible slackness in the Hip and Shoulder relationship", which Lynn referred to above, can IMO easily cause the Hands to move back too low and too much inside.
That's not saying that you cannot produce wonderful Swings with Standard Hip Action. And I agree that the slackness in the Hip/Shoulder relationship seems to fit the Swinger's pattern, particularly the Dragging Clubhead Takeaway. But much more difficult to master than Delayed Hip Action.
Originally Posted by Par71
At Address or at Impact Fix (which, of course, could be one and the same if you're using Impact Address)?
Options of course...but more of an adjusted address look...if you keep your arms soft and move your body around you'll note the change in the handle location....I'd say preturn the right hip and actually pre-straighten the right knee some too...should pull the handle to the point where your hands look more address attitude than fix.
One thing to note on the angle of approach, hitting ARBITRARILY requires 10-5-e closed plane line the listing for the angle of approach procedure is the hitting basic pattern. Also par71s questions are very well pointed, AP has quite a bit of hip turn there and is going on to end.....wouldn't this require a switch to an arc of approach procedure....
Also I would agree with you par71 in that delayed hip action will help the golfer get up the plane better versus a tendency to drag it under(shoulder turn takeaway) with standard hip action along with my previous reasons I believe this to be why he recommended delayed hip action for the swingers basic pattern
Definition of arbitrary
Based on random choice or personal whim, rather than any reason or system.
(of power or a ruling body) Unrestrained and autocratic in the use of authority.
In other words it may require it if thats what it takes to accomplish it but it does not absolutely require a closed plane line which is very minimal anyway
It's August 1970, I get to the course early for the first round of the PGA Championship. The range only has a handful of players with two of them on the far right side. Back when, there were no ropes, just respectful fans. I sit down in the grass not more than 15 feet behind the two players who happen to be Gary Player and Arnold Palmer. Player is incessantly peppering Palmer with questions about the grip and Palmer grunts short, inaudible answers, appearing to be annoyed. He is taking giant beaver pelt divots and showering me with dirt and grass as there's a wind out of the West. Back then, of course, I didn't know Hitting from Swinging, but I remember clearly this muscular whirling dervish raking the balls with his massive shoulders - a veritable human g-machine centrifuge. Looking back 41 yrs later, I know I was watching a Swinger.
It's August 1970, I get to the course early for the first round of the PGA Championship. The range only has a handful of players with two of them on the far right side. Back when, there were no ropes, just respectful fans. I sit down in the grass not more than 15 feet behind the two players who happen to be Gary Player and Arnold Palmer. Player is incessantly peppering Palmer with questions about the grip and Palmer grunts short, inaudible answers, appearing to be annoyed. He is taking giant beaver pelt divots and showering me with dirt and grass as there's a wind out of the West. Back then, of course, I didn't know Hitting from Swinging, but I remember clearly this muscular whirling dervish raking the balls with his massive shoulders - a veritable human g-machine centrifuge. Looking back 41 yrs later, I know I was watching a Swinger.
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